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Journey, the actions of both a hybrid and a silent piano are in essence the same and would need the same amount of work over time. The silent piano on the other hand would need to be tuned on a regular basis and if kept for decades that cost would keep going up.

When you factor in the cost of all the tunings and the eventual restringing and perhaps a new pin block, a hybrid piano doesn't seem all that bad.

When Yamaha introduces the next generation of hybrids in five years or so, I'll trade in my AvantGrand and get a good price. (I don't have an emotional attachment with my piano, it's simply a tool to get the job done. I got an excellent price for my 12 year old GranTouch when I traded that in.)

I'll never have to pay for to have my piano tuned, restrung, pin block reworked or have the sound board repaired. I will have to have the action worked on but then I would have that same expense on any other acoustic piano.

For practicing purposes a hybrid piano has more advantages.

And don't forget, the vast improvement over the GranTouch by the AvantGrand is just one generation. It will be interesting to see what Yamaha comes up with in five years or so.

Dave, I agree wholeheartedly that the AvantGrand N3 and the Yamaha C3 share a nearly identical keyboard/action.

I also agree that the AvantGrand is cheaper to buy and own than a genuine grand piano with hammers, strings, soundboard and the infinity of sounds of a real, wooden and steel acoustic piano such as an authentic Yamaha C3 with a built in digital Silent system. Yes, authentic acoustic pianos need to be tuned just like authentic wooden floors need to be waxed and authentic sports cars need to be tuned up and wooden sailboats need to be sanded and varnished. It is part of the whole total ownership package that is part of their charm. Our long term relationship with our tuner is a pleasant bit of social stability amongst the throw-away "busy busy" non-relationships of the prevailing culture.

However, I do take issue with your notion that during the expected useful life of an AvantGrand that an equivalent Yamaha C3 would need a new pin block and re-stringing or a new soundboard. Or, the implication that trading in an acoustic C3 after five years would give any worse of a deal than trading in an Avantgrand.

In fact, I would dare stick my neck out and say that if someone were to buy a C3 and an AvantGrand N3 for the long haul, that after 25 years only the C3 would be worth anything at all other than as a curiosity. However, during those 25 years, only the owner of the C3 would have had the pleasure of playing on an acoustic piano with the infinity of nuances, dynamics, resonances, etc.

If someone is going to always practice with headphones, to my idea both the N3 and the C3S are bad choices. After all, the attractiveness of the four channel sound reproduction and the vibrations of the transducers of the N3 are not felt with headphones, turning the Avantgrand into a very expensive digital piano (with a superior keyboard). And, if one will never let the hammers hit the strings, it doesn't make sense to have a C3 either.

If someone is going to want to play "real piano" when possible and silent perhaps a maximum of 30% of the time, then the C3 is an ideal solution. The Avantgrand is as sexy as all get out, but at the end of the day, it is based on static sampling technology and to really appreciate its sound you also have to crank up the volume and therefore the neighbors issue becomes again current. Playing at a much softer volume may also create more issues with technique than it helps. Additionally, if one has the choice of listening to playback of static, sample recordings of a piano versus actually playing one, it seems preferable to actually play one.

Finally, there is a substantial amount of the literature that simply is impossible or deeply unrewarding to perform on a digital piano, even one as convincing as the Avantgrand.

Journey, the AvantGrand's Tactile Response System can be turned on when using headphones.

Also, I have no intention of keeping my N3 for 25 years. (I didn't keep my C3 for anywhere near 25 years either.) I've heard that you can't take your money with you so I have no problems buying a new piano every so often.

As a professional musician, I look at my practice piano as a tool. You use the word static to describe the sound of the AvantGrand. I would much rather have a so called static sound that is perfectly in tune than what I had with my C3. (As an aside, I lived in a single house when I moved over here and had many towels stuffed in the C3's soundboard as well as a felt strip between the lid and body to quiet it down. Grand pianos are loud, too loud for many hours of daily practicing - I'm referring to my ears, not to my neighbors.)

For practice purposes I really do not see the need to have 230 tunable strings and a cast iron plate under tons of pressure. A pure acoustic piano on stage for performance, of course, but I spend most of my time off stage. I like playing on a real grand piano action and playing on a piano that is always in tune.

You romanticized pure acoustic pianos and their maintenance by mentioning authentic hardwood floors, authentic sports cars and wooden sailboats. You left out the equally romantic coal burning steam locomotive and its billowing black soot.

I am just jealous of your N3.

Do you ever get down this way? We live just outside of Den Bosch.

Thanks for all the replies. An update. We went to see the new silents which our favorite piano store just received. My wife tried the Kawai Anytime but she did not like the sound when played as an acoustic piano. She also tried the two Yamaha Silent (one U1 from 1996 and another piano from 2004). She liked the action but she did not like the sound (the U1 is priced at 5k, the other one at 4.5k). She started trying all the pianos in the store, including all the Kawai and Roland digital pianos and she ended choosing for a...ugh...used Hyundai Upright from 198something, acoustic, at 1.7k. She loved the bright sound and when I told her "what about our neighbors" she asked the dealer to put two layers of felt in the middle pedal.

She said that she really can't see herself playing a digital piano, she does not like the action. The silent pianos did not capture her heart enough and the Hyundai seemed the perfect choice for her current needs and our current financial status.

Given that we have not confirmed the purchase yet, what do you think of her choice?

If an upright with a felt curtain is acceptable then you can get those for any price you want from "free" on up. Look at Craigslist. She'll likely not want a free piano as most of those are not great but you can find good ones for under $1K. The felt curtain can be applied to any upright.

But I think this is showing an unreasonable bias against digital piano. It is very hard to argue that the sound of an acoustic piano with the felt is better than a digital. Even a cheap digital piano sounds better then a muffled acoustic's dull thumping sound.

You can add felt to a grand piano too. I think you simply open the lid and lay a pad over the strings. If a felt muffled acoustic is acceptable then why not buy a baby grand? Those also go for any price from zero up. You don't need a piano tech to add a felt muffler to a grand. If piano's key action is #1 then it's hard not to prefer a grand over an upright.

The other thing about upright pianos is, have you ever tried to sell one? It's hard to do because so many people are selling cheap on Craigslist. It's a buyer's market.

For practice purposes I would have thought a good quality DP within your budget would be enough, and as someone else suggested find out where you can supplement that with practice on an acoustic - church, school, store, etc

Otherwise, make contact with your neighbours. Or at least find out when it's acceptable to play or not play. You might have shift workers living close by, or people with a low level of 'noise' tolerance due to work habits, health, anything. Also are there local bye-laws or ones that apply to your apartment block?

As a budding pianist, my practice sessions are more noise than music. Maybe your wife's practice is beautiful music all the time, with no missed notes, repeats, odd tempo, and so on. Listening to others practice, like me, would drive me nuts

botolo, if you go for this one at $1.7k, please be prepared to take a significant loss when you sell. That's not necessarily a bad thing. You'll have a piano that the player likes - which is a very good thing - and you won't have to continue to shop, which can also be a very good thing.

I think to answer that question properly we need to know more about your residential situation.

In the OP you said that you are planning to move in a couple of years and then buy an acoustic. So we’re talking about roughly 24 months of what is likely to be a fill-in before you get what your wife really wants.

Looking at it purely in relation to technique, I don’t believe an advanced pianist such as your wife is going to undermine her pianistic ability by playing on a digital for a couple of years. She may not get the satisfaction she has always enjoyed from playing a Steinway, but the sound through quality headphones is pretty good in my opinion, and at least she’ll be exercising her fingers and playing freely with whatever dynamics she wants. There are a few other plusses too – being able to record yourself for one, and in particular recording with split keyboard which allows you to play back (say) the left hand in isolation. In very fast passages it’s surprising what such a recording reveals, even though you think you’re playing in even time.

What I believe will damage your wife’s technique (and I speak from experience here) is playing an acoustic piano where you deliberately ‘back off’ on the dynamics in order to lower the volume and not annoy neighbours (sleeping children in my case). What happens is that you start decelerating too early into the keys and before you know it you are losing authority and control. It creates an unconscious hesitancy which can take some time to rectify later.

In short, if you are confident that you can muffle the acoustic or arrange playing times that are satisfactory with neighbours so that your wife can play FF with abandon when she needs to play FF, then go for that option. Otherwise I’d think a bit more about this. At my age two years seems like a blink of an eye, and it won’t be that long before your wife can get the instrument that will do justice to her ability.

Best wishes, whatever choice you make.

"Given that we have not confirmed the purchase yet, what do you think of her choice?"

Well, botolo, I think... go back to the store and listen again. Three auditions on three different days, with at least a day in between... and take notes; even make a recording if you can.

This process will help clarify your thinking and guard against impulse-buying.

I also think that many piano showrooms are less-than-ideal for helping you to decide what a piano will sound like when it is in your own home. 'Bright and loud' helps cut through the acoustic black hole in most showrooms, but many purchasers get quite a surprise after they take delivery. We see uncounted amounts of letters on this forum from people begging for solutions to make their piano sound quieter and less shrill.

It couldn't do you any harm to look up the reviews during this thinking-it-over time.

I'm all for making your wife happy, but when I saw you actually use the word, "Ugh," to describe this instrument, it made me realize that you will be the one who has to listen to it, for some years to come.

If it's "Ugh," then it's "Look some more." And if your wife is trying to spare your pocketbook, this one costs too much money (for what it is) anyway. I don't see its resale or trade-in value helping you to move up the piano food chain, when the time comes.

Dear Friends,

another update! We shopped around and we finally bought a piano. It's an acoustic piano, upright, from Kawai. It's almost new, it was bought by someone for her daughter who never played it. My wife tried it today and she was impressed and fell in love with it (finally forgetting about the Hyundai).

We paid 2k for the piano, including delivery and taxes, a good price. We bought it from the super sweet Leonard from Hollywood Piano in Burbank.

The piano should arrive here on Monday!

My wife is super happy...I am super happy!

I would like to thank all of you for your time, your passion. Reading your replies has helped us thinking about our choice and helped us understanding her needs. Thanks!

Congratulations, I am sure you will both be very happy with your almost-new piano.

Do you recall the model number, just out of interest?

Kind regards,
James
x

Congratulations on your new-to-you piano. Verticals are frequently positioned facing a wall. If you're going to do that, your piano should sound better if it's not right against the wall. You might want to try a fist's width away.

I thought the silent option was a hard requirement in the first place, hence all this discussion. If it wasn't a hard requirement to begin with, you could have found a lot of good deals like you did. Congratulations anyway!

Volusiano, you are right. The silent was a hard requirement at the beginning but when my wife tried the digital pianos and found that they did not meet her taste and after facing the problem of buying an expensive silent piano without financing, we were in some way forced to choose something different.

Yeah, that's always been a dilemma for most people because used silent pianos are hard to find, so one almost has to buy new and pay a premium for it. Even new silent pianos are hard to find, I think. You more than likely would have to special order one. I suspect the only digital piano your wife might have liked would be the AvantGrand N2 or N3, but then they're expensive, too.

Just to be accurate, the AvantGrand N2 and N3 are not digital per se but should rather be labeled hybrids as they use a real grand piano action.

Before the AvantGrand, Yamaha made the GranTouch 1 and 2 which also were hybrids. The GranTouch might also be available as a used piano.

Kawai also made a hybrid piano and perhaps someone here can mention the model number.

One final thought. While we ended buying the piano from Hollywood Piano, I would like to recommend Pierre's Fine Pianos on Pico Boulevard, Los Angeles. Pierre has been very nice with us, he showed many many used acoustic pianos and he also had three wonderful used silent pianos. If you look for a piano and you are in the West Los Angeles / Westwood area, Pierre should be considered as a great dealer.

Congratulations !! I hope you were able to make monthly payments and that Simona enjoys the piano.