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#1837123 - 02/02/12 10:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
I have the same melodic issues too so I recorded a slow version of All the Things You Are. Slower is harder for me. Aside from sensitivity to articulation, the melodic problems are more exposed. So please critique.

ATTYA
http://www.box.com/s/36cy4q8kx22ro9044oo3



I think at this tempo you've got to really feel the triplet all the time. Try singing the triplet while you play... like the doo-duh-luh thing we talked about awhile ago. And really lock into the feel of the "luh".

Come to think of it, I've come more to like singing something like doo-n-duh. I like the harder sound of the "duh" on the upbeat. It's easier to feel it's presence that way. And the "n" in the middle is softer and glides by without much presence other than a subtle feeling.

Last edited by Scott Coletta; 02/02/12 10:51 AM. Reason: additional thoughts
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#1837127 - 02/02/12 10:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Thanks Scott. Kinda frustrating because I felt like I went backward. In this live Solar excerpt (though it's Latin) -- I thought my groove was fine. This is a tempo I'm comfortable with.

Solar Excerpt
http://www.box.com/s/9iqm2luach71e13dtrkp

I just need to practice more swing in this tempo because you're right, this is the triplet feel tempo but maybe with more drag too. I think maybe I couldn't settle into what I wanted to do groove wise and I was shifting back and forth, particularly because I wasn't playing a stream of eighths.



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#1837129 - 02/02/12 10:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]  
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Originally Posted by Scott Coletta
Come to think of it, I've come more to like singing something like doo-n-duh. I like the harder sound of the "duh" on the upbeat. It's easier to feel it's presence that way. And the "n" in the middle is softer and glides by without much presence other than a subtle feeling.


I should know how to do that. And that's what I would normally think of too. I agree.


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#1837131 - 02/02/12 10:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Yeah I just listened to it again and I was really off there. Not my favorite tempo so I practice very little in this range and it shows my weaknesses. I think I was thinking of other things and wasn't focused.



On the positive side it is noticeably better than how you sounded a short time ago. Not swinging hard enough is something we all have to deal with (except maybe for Wynton Kelly)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzZCoryiQxQ&feature=related

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#1837196 - 02/02/12 12:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Thanks Scott. Kinda frustrating because I felt like I went backward. In this live Solar excerpt (though it's Latin) -- I thought my groove was fine. This is a tempo I'm comfortable with.

Solar Excerpt
http://www.box.com/s/9iqm2luach71e13dtrkp

I just need to practice more swing in this tempo because you're right, this is the triplet feel tempo but maybe with more drag too. I think maybe I couldn't settle into what I wanted to do groove wise and I was shifting back and forth, particularly because I wasn't playing a stream of eighths.



Well, I know for me, having grown up exposed to "straight" music like rock and classical, I find it easier to play latin and other straight styles too. Swing just hasn't come natural to me.

#1837203 - 02/02/12 12:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]  
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Beeboss, If I Were A Bell and Estate sound really nice. The drum track on Estate is interesting. There's all kinds of little funny sounds in there... cool. laugh

How do you stop the drums at the end? Are you editing after the fact?

#1837249 - 02/02/12 01:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]  
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Thanks Scott.
The drums on estate are just a couple of loops so they go on for ever unless I put a stop to them. It only took a few minutes to do them drum part so it is not exactly advanced, but i guess it does its job more or less.

#1837255 - 02/02/12 01:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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I've been recording solo tracks and overdubbing a second track recently. I'm finding it very revealing as far as my time is concerned. I'm still not getting it as solid as I'd like it to be... in a few places the walking bass feels like it rushes and drags. Plus the comping is a little out of sync every now and then. But overall I think I'm getting better. I've decided that I still need alot more practice walking bass lines and comping with the metronome on the "and". When I play with the metronome on the beat, I can keep the quarter notes steady, but the swing in the comping gets off. So I think I'm still just not feeling the "and" solidly enough. That's why I'm trying to get to where I can play a solid bass line with comping while the metronome plays the "and". Here's a track I just did (the parts are panned slightly to distinguish them):

http://www.box.com/s/ja7a3t6pzqio6q8bebzv

Any thoughts or suggestions?




#1837301 - 02/02/12 03:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Scott,

I thought that was very nice. You're pretty much in the pocket the whole time. I like how you do what I call the "Bill run" at about 2:20, and how you trade with yourself on the last chorus. That's really well done.
Very nice solo, and very nice groove.

#1837310 - 02/02/12 03:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]  
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When I started studying jazz a few years ago I thought the hard part would be learning the complex harmonies and putting together a good solo. Turns out the hardest thing of all is to swing, to really really Wynton Kelly swing.

#1837372 - 02/02/12 05:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]  
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Knotty, thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll keep at it.


Originally Posted by jjo
When I started studying jazz a few years ago I thought the hard part would be learning the complex harmonies and putting together a good solo. Turns out the hardest thing of all is to swing, to really really Wynton Kelly swing.



Agreed!






#1837408 - 02/02/12 06:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]  
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Originally Posted by jjo
When I started studying jazz a few years ago I thought the hard part would be learning the complex harmonies and putting together a good solo. Turns out the hardest thing of all is to swing, to really really Wynton Kelly swing.


It is hard to really swing. When I hear Wynton it makes me realise how far there is left to go.

#1837410 - 02/02/12 06:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]  
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Originally Posted by Scott Coletta


http://www.box.com/s/ja7a3t6pzqio6q8bebzv

Any thoughts or suggestions?



That sounds really good Scott. The only thing that I can suggest it that your approach makes the comping a little weird. Sometimes the comping between the 2 takes gets muddled and generally I think the comping you do with the bass line is too loud, it detracts from the solo line a little. You have soem great lines going.
I really love the way you mix it up between the takes with one soloing and then the other taking over.
Are you recording the first track with a metronome and then turning it off for the 2nd take?

#1837444 - 02/02/12 08:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]  
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Originally Posted by beeboss

That sounds really good Scott. The only thing that I can suggest it that your approach makes the comping a little weird. Sometimes the comping between the 2 takes gets muddled and generally I think the comping you do with the bass line is too loud, it detracts from the solo line a little. You have soem great lines going.
I really love the way you mix it up between the takes with one soloing and then the other taking over.
Are you recording the first track with a metronome and then turning it off for the 2nd take?


Thanks beeboss. Good observations. I agree that the comping gets messy at times but I didn't really notice that it was all that loud, so thanks for pointing that out. I'd like to be able to make it work though. Have you heard Bill Evans' record "Conversations With Myself". It's really amazing how he's able to keep everything together on there, with so much going on... 3 tracks for each tune!

I didn't use a metronome at all for my recording. I'm pretty pleased that I'm keeping it together as well as I am considering. Used to be there was no way I could do that at all without a metronome, so I'm making progress!

#1837473 - 02/02/12 09:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]  
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Originally Posted by Scott Coletta
I've been recording solo tracks and overdubbing a second track recently. I'm finding it very revealing as far as my time is concerned. I'm still not getting it as solid as I'd like it to be... in a few places the walking bass feels like it rushes and drags. Plus the comping is a little out of sync every now and then. But overall I think I'm getting better. I've decided that I still need alot more practice walking bass lines and comping with the metronome on the "and". When I play with the metronome on the beat, I can keep the quarter notes steady, but the swing in the comping gets off. So I think I'm still just not feeling the "and" solidly enough. That's why I'm trying to get to where I can play a solid bass line with comping while the metronome plays the "and". Here's a track I just did (the parts are panned slightly to distinguish them):

http://www.box.com/s/ja7a3t6pzqio6q8bebzv

Any thoughts or suggestions?





Wow! "Conversation between Scotts". smile That was great and swinging. And really nice lines. Impressive, man. It was fun listening to it in stereo.



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#1837554 - 02/02/12 11:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: etcetra]  
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Originally Posted by etcetra
Hi guys,

I know I don't post often but I was wondering if you guys can give me some feedback about my dilemma.

I recorded myself practicing recently.. I feel like right now I want to focus on how to make music with what I know. I feel like too many people are just stuck trying to get better chops and learn complicated ideas without knowing how to use them musically, and I want to make a conscious effort to move away from that. I don't remember who said you spend 20 years learning what to play and another 20 learning what not to play, and that makes sense to me now.

In some ways playing fast on giant steps is easier than playing slow because you barely have time to think.. but on slower tunes where I feel like I am not sure what I am supposed to do. I feel like great players have this conviction in everything phrase they play, but I kind of get this empty feeling that whatever I play is not me, or it's not right, as I play them.

Here are the recordings.

http://soundcloud.com/jason-hayashi/giant-steps-practice
http://soundcloud.com/jason-hayashi/night-and-day
http://soundcloud.com/jason-hayashi/sugar


So...your dilemma is you feel what you play is not you? Are those three excerpts not you, or are they you? I'm confused as to what you are actually asking. You obviously have chops, and have learned your scales and chords very well, right? Are you asking if what you've posted is musical, or are you stating that those tracks are not what really represents how you'd want to express yourself musically?
You responded to jazzwee earlier on stating that it's sometimes best to keep it really simple. My take on your playing is that you're not focussing on the simplicity, but rather the complexity of the lines. I'm actually not convinced that you're even developing the lines as you're playing one after the other, but maybe moreso knowing what you 'can' play you'll play it--but what you may want to play is still left somewhere else, and then the musicality is left out.
Now this isn't to say that what you're doing is wrong or bad, but maybe what is missing is the narrative part of the playing--telling a story. What I sense in what you posted is a large bunch of characters, but little development of them. Instead of getting deeper into each motif or idea, you abandon it and start to develop another one. Maybe this is what you feel you're missing?

In any case, you've definitely got some great ideas, and you have good technique. I guess now you may think about the stripping away process to do, and then the redevelopment phase. So hard to do in realtime, I know.


Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.


#1837560 - 02/02/12 11:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Scott Coletta]  
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Originally Posted by Scott Coletta
I
http://www.box.com/s/ja7a3t6pzqio6q8bebzv

Any thoughts or suggestions?

...hey are you grunting like Keith Jarrett there? Is that a separate track? smile

As always Scott, I really like your playing. You've got a real sense for arranging, and your melodies are really, really musical. You know, it would be cool if you remixed it with the comping turned down by about 50% (as beeboss said).
Great rhythmic feel, and you kept the tempo consistent all the way through. I still have trouble with speeding up when I play at certain tempo ranges, so I really appreciate that you did this without a metronome.
One suggestion though, monster hands, why aren't you walking in 10ths in the bass? If you've got it, flaunt it, right? I met Jessica Williams years ago, and I mentioned to her that she has such a great open sound to her chords and she compared her hand to mine--a span of a 12th compared to my 9th/10th. grrr.


Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.


#1837585 - 02/03/12 12:14 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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I was practicing tonight at 170bpm instead of 125bpm and I realized that I play so differently at these tempos. I lose my groove the closer I get to 120bpm. My style of playing seems to fit better at the mid-upper tempos.

This is going to be a challenge since this slow swing zone requires some evenness in the swing that I can't maintain.

I did a trial run again on the slow swing and although it was much better, there was still something missing. Lots of work to do. Sigh...



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#1837600 - 02/03/12 12:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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When you guys are doing something melodic for long stretches, are you in full concentration of the melodies the whole time? Or do you take a breath and let some filler stuff sneak on so you can get back your bearings?

I was noticing that I can concentrate on melodies for a period then I lose it, and it may take awhile to get the ideas flowing again. It's a very draining experience.


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#1837622 - 02/03/12 12:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
When you guys are doing something melodic for long stretches, are you in full concentration of the melodies the whole time?

Isn't it like being part of a great conversation? Shouldn't you always be aware of where you're at, what's been said, and how to continue the ideas? The bad conversationalists are the ones that might go 'uh huh...I see what you mean....yes, you have a point there...' all the while just waiting to talk. Even worse are people that quote stats or misuse quotes from famous people. Those are bs fillers, and I think the same happens in players when they get lazy.
Sure it's hard to stay on things, but really the rewards are much greater compared to passing the time (in a solo, whatnot) but only just pretending to contribute something meaningful.

This isn't to say that what you are saying will always be original. You can't avoid the vocabulary within the genre that you're playing, nor can you always make up new ways of saying things, but you can make sure that all the ideas flow, and that they build upon each other.

So yes, I try to be in full concentration. It's not easy, especially when I try to play something that is slightly out of reach of my ears or abilities and I'm left hanging...


Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.


#1837669 - 02/03/12 02:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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So maybe BS filler may be an offensive term but licks could fall in that category too. Something that doesn't require as much thought was continously creating original melodies.

I've hung out with a lot of players now from jam sessions and clearly the bulk of the output isn't sophisticated and original. I'm not sure the typical audience can even grasp it anyway.

When my sax player does the blues and repeats a 3 note sequence for 20 seconds, the audience goes wild but that wasn't sophisticated. It's a lick.

Obviously, it would be nice to be as creative as KJ but I'm just realizing that my expectations of what I can achieve have to be tempered with reality. This stuff isn't going to come overnight.

My first jazz teacher, who himself was a student at the time was trying to explain what he played. And apparently he didn't really know what to play so he became proficient at arpeggios and inversions thereof. He just played them fast and he admitted, it was BS filler. He didn't have the creative bent to come up with something original.

I thought that was an interesting memory...

You guys have been at this longer and maybe you have some insight as to how you progressed with idea development and solo shaping and doing it with some meat. What's your story? Give us a timeline.


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#1837702 - 02/03/12 04:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]  
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Originally Posted by beeboss
It is hard to really swing. When I hear Wynton it makes me realise how far there is left to go.

Yes it is. But Wynton's swing is different from say Jarrett's, but they both swing.

examples: http://www.speech.kth.se/music/performance/Texts/inegales.htm

text: http://www.acoustics.org/press/137th/friberg.html

Faster the tempo, lower is the swing ratio: [Linked Image]

Abstract: "At slow tempi, the swing ratio was as high as 3.5:1, whereas at fast tempi it reached 1:1. The often-mentioned "triple-feel," that is, a ratio of 2:1, was present only at a certain tempo. The absolute duration of the short note in the long-short pattern was constant at about 100 ms for medium to fast tempi, suggesting a practical limit on tone duration that may be due to perceptual factors. Another aspect of swing is the soloist's timing in relation to the accompaniment. For example, a soloist can be characterized as playing "behind the beat." In the second part, the swing ratio of the soloist and its relation to the cymbal accompaniment was measured from the same recordings. In slow tempi, the soloists were mostly playing their downbeats after the cymbal but were synchronized with the cymbal at the off-beats. This implied that the swing ratio of the soloist was considerably smaller than the cymbal accompaniment in slow tempi. It may give an impression of "playing behind" but at the same time keep the synchrony with the accompaniment at the off-beat positions."

Gotta love these guys . . .



Last edited by chrisbell; 02/03/12 04:49 AM.
#1837713 - 02/03/12 05:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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More on the nature on swing:
[Linked Image]

"A spectrogram of a short passage of “My Funny Valentine” performed by Miles Davis Quintet, 1964, illustrating the timing relation between the ride cymbal and the soloist in jazz. The cymbal onsets appear as vertical lines in the high frequency part of the graph.
The saxophone onsets appear as breaks, or vertical shifts, in the horizontal lines in the lower part of the graph. In this
example, cymbal is being played with a swing ratio of about 4:1 and the saxophone with a swing ratio of approximately 3:2.
The downbeat saxophone tones are delayed relative to the cymbal by about 100 ms, but on the upbeats, the cymbal and the saxophone are synchronized.

". . . soloists deliberately play behind the beat. At each quarter-note beat, the soloist was delayed relative to the ride cymbal by up to about 100 ms at slow tempi"

"At the same time the soloist and drummer were synchronized at the upbeats, i.e., on the eighth-notes between the beats. The purpose here is probably not to highlight the soloist, which in this style is clearly audible, due to either large spectral
differences or the use of microphones. Rather, this timing combination creates both the impression of the laid-back soloist often strived for in jazz, and at the same time an impression of good synchronization"

#1837715 - 02/03/12 05:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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jazzwee,scepticalforum guy

When I really get into really conversation with people, it almost feels as words just flow out of mean, and great ideas gets expressed without much effort. It feels like you are just letting the conversation happen. I guess what I get from my playing is the lack of that feeling, and those moments to me are still rare. I find that even if I play simple, that lingering feeling of not feeling convinced of your own playing is still there. I agree that playing simple and developing ideas is part of the answer, i guess it's matter of how I play simple.

Scott Coletta,

Great playing and thanks so much for the encouragement! You are doing the "whole conversation with myself" very gracefully. One thing though, like Beeboss said I do have similar concerns about the comping.. for me it seems like you are rushing them ever-so-slightly and that's contributing to the problem. I do this exercise where I record myself playing with the metronome on the keyboard and record it, do the same without the metronome at the same tempo using different patch, and play both at the same time. It made me realize just how much I rush certain rhythms, especially in comping. At first I felt really uncomfortable waiting/leaving so much space to play those rhythm like they are supposed to, but I feel like I am slowly figuring out when it feels right and when it doesn't

Chrisbell,

While scientific understanding of swing feel is interesting, I am guessing for most of us it's probably more helpful to have an more intuitive way of approaching them. It's not about knowing it in your head but knowing/feeling it in your ears and in your bodies.

As for myself, I do things like listen to this short Oscar Peterson clip and play it over and over again until I can sound just like his imitation of Nat King Cole. Hopefully with enough of that I can know/do what's right by instinct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec-FrnaU0rs&t=1m10s

Last edited by etcetra; 02/03/12 05:32 AM.
#1837742 - 02/03/12 07:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
I was noticing that I can concentrate on melodies for a period then I lose it, and it may take awhile to get the ideas flowing again. It's a very draining experience..


To focus at close to 100% is very tiring.
Another requirement for 100% concentration on the melodic is that you know the melody and sequence so well that it is virtually impossible to get lost, and another is that you have worked all the voicings harmonic devices scales arpeggios key centres enough that your fingers just know where to go so well that they can do so in virtual automatic pilot mode, leaving your mind free for higher level decisions about how to play the melody line. When that focus is achieved it is impossible to not play a great melody, but for most of it is almost impossible to sustain that degree of focus for a long time. The greats are in that zone all the time.

#1837743 - 02/03/12 07:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]  
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beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted by scepticalforumguy
Isn't it like being part of a great conversation? Shouldn't you always be aware of where you're at, what's been said, and how to continue the ideas? The bad conversationalists are the ones that might go 'uh huh...I see what you mean....yes, you have a point there...' all the while just waiting to talk. Even worse are people that quote stats or misuse quotes from famous people. Those are bs fillers, and I think the same happens in players when they get lazy.


A good analogy

#1837774 - 02/03/12 08:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]  
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chrisbell Offline
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Originally Posted by beeboss
To focus at close to 100% is very tiring.
Another requirement for 100% concentration on the melodic is that you know the melody and sequence so well that it is virtually impossible to get lost, . . .

I'm finding that knowing is not enough, one has to really be in the music - or rather be the music.
I believe that the tiredness thing is a sign that one is trying and pushing too hard.
Practise consciously, then at the gig let the sub-concious do its thing.
Remember it's "playing" music, not working music.

#1837786 - 02/03/12 08:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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knotty Offline
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Lick / Conversation.

What's a lick?
To take the analogy of speech, a lick is a short phrase, one that is easy to understand, but carries great power and meaning. Put in the right place, its effect can be tremendous. In the wrong place, well, it just sounds wrong.

Examples of licks:
"I Love You!"
"You look like $%$"
"I'll make you an offer you can't refuse"
"Make no mistake"
"Show me the money"

What do you think?
I am guilty of not practicing licks. I remember that being one of the "How to stay mediocre" article tips.


#1837795 - 02/03/12 08:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]  
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chrisbell Offline
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Now you're riffing . . .
smile

#1837810 - 02/03/12 09:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]  
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beeboss Offline
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uk south
Originally Posted by chrisbell
Originally Posted by beeboss
To focus at close to 100% is very tiring.
Another requirement for 100% concentration on the melodic is that you know the melody and sequence so well that it is virtually impossible to get lost, . . .

I'm finding that knowing is not enough, one has to really be in the music - or rather be the music.
I believe that the tiredness thing is a sign that one is trying and pushing too hard.
Practise consciously, then at the gig let the sub-concious do its thing.
Remember it's "playing" music, not working music.



Yes, definitely. Playing needs to be sort of effortless. I meant the kind of tiredness you get afterwards. If I focus hard for 3 or 4 hours (with breaks) then afterwards I am pretty finished.

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