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Hi. I have a 190 cms Blúthner grand aliquot from 1921 (series VIII), all in original shape (incredibly good shape) except a new Abel Blüthner (soft) hammers. After voicing and full regulation everything (including its Patent action and correcting bedding -no frame glides here-) it begins to sound great... The question here is that the famous aliquot 4th string doesn't perform (in my opinion) well. In this piano from G4 to G6 there is the first section of aliquot, tuned an octave above. The rest (G#6 to the treble end) there is the second section, tuned as unison with the three strings. Well, if I hit a note from the first section, the 4th string doesn't move. Nothing. It's very easy to test stopping the three strings after the blow (keeping the key/damper pressed). Instead this 4th string sounds when I hit the octave above (of course, for resonance unison...). So I believe this first section is only "partial useful" playing octaves... May be when it was young were some kind of sympathetic resonance with the second harmonic... But looking for the äctual new Blüthner grand I see they have only the second aliquot section.
What now I am planning is a full rebuilding of this instrument, looking for the best sound performance. And I am thinking two solutions for the aliquot system.
1. Eliminate completely the first section (and all their parts), keeping the second one. It'll be less load to the soundboard...
2. Install the brass aliquot guide of the first section (or similar lighter one) in to the same bridge, as the second one has, transforming the octave in unison. In this way sure it'll vibrate, adding power and colour... There is room in the bridge for this delicate operation, when I am saving the full structure (dampers, hitch pins). Even the central aliquot bridge may be the support for a retractable top system rail damper for these four strings...
I know this second way I am moving the impedance from the aliquot bridge to the central bridge... although the load of four strings (I think) is minimal.
May be I am dreaming? Anyone tried before?
All your comments are welcome!!

It's best to work with a local technician who can SEE what you are planing to do.

Local technician expert in Blüthners in my region? Sorry, only me at this time.
Years ago I visited the Blüthner factory in Leipzig (Germany) trying to learn more about their pianos and their actions (the Patent action). I passed some hours with the director Ingbert Blüthner-Haessler who explained me that the newer grands only use the aliquot at the top treble section. They eliminated the first section (because doesn't run? Was real marqueting at this time?).
I try to share experiences if anyone know
or has full rebuild these aliquot (4th string) grands.

My experience with the aliquot stringing system in Blüthners is that it might at best have a minuscule effect on the sound in either the new or old models. The audible effect is far less than its value as advertising. My advice is to leave the piano as it is. If you try to change it, you are likely to damage the piano, and you will certainly damage its value.

I am curious as to why the fourth strings in the first section do not respond except to notes an octave above.
What is the approximate relative strength of the second partial in the three string unisons of the first section?
If it is weak or nonexistent in the unison I would expect that it would not get the fourth string moving very much.
Have you checked the soundboard for crown and strings for bearing?

The aliquot strings on the lower notes are tuned an octave higher than the struck notes. They are on a separate bridge and the speaking length is shorter.

Gene: although the hammers are very soft by design in this piano (few partials) I did a battery voicing to have more power and brightness. The sound is very good (not perfect yet -strings are 90 years old!-) with an excellent sustain. I see some mm yet of positive crown for the soundboard. All the downbearings measures are OK.
BDB: of course "to leave the piano as it is" is the prudent option, but I am planning a full rebuild and it's obvious that the separate aliquot bridge is not working more (was it really working time ago? Anyone can test it with similar instrument?).
With my first option (eliminate this bridge, as the actual Blüthners are) I'll reduce the stiffness of the soundboard. It's better or worst for the killer octave? (locate in this area).
The second option is risky but innovative. It touches me... Structurally I'd be only changing the string impedance of place. Can it works?

I do not know what you mean by "it's obvious that the separate aliquot bridge is not working more." What are you expecting to happen? How are you determining what is happening?

At best the effect should be no more than what would happen on a piano if you hit a note in that range, and the note an octave above is depressed so that the damper is raised and two strings are muted. The effect of the aliquot strings is tiny, and overwhelmed by the sound of the struck strings. It is barely audible. You should not be expecting miracles.

Removing the aliquot stringing will leave you with a worthless piano, because people will be expecting it to have those strings. Unless you replace the soundboard, it will have holes in it. There will be many hitch pins with no strings to go on them. There will be no upward pressure exerted by the aliquot strings to counteract the pressure of the other strings.

It is impossible to answer the question of whether it will work or not. What exactly are you planning to do? What results do you expect? How many other pianos have you rebuilt? Have you performed any modifications on them? What were the results? If you have not done anything like this on other pianos, a Blüthner grand is not the piano you should be practicing on.

I don't expect miracles? I have a central aliquot bridge with 25 strings which they are not working! So simple.
In the full rebuilding (and first option) can not be a problem in fixing every hole, hitch pins missing...
I have not done anything like this on others pianos because only old Blüthners have this bridge... and it is my first one.
(I have full successful rebuilding three grands before).
I don't expect to invent the wheel... just try to improve the performance of this grand, if it's possible. Of course I write here trying to share opinions and information first. Thanks BDB.

Hi lluis,

I'm with BDB - I think it is simply inadvisable to mess with a Blüthner grand in this way.

You have also commented that the strings are original - about 90 years old. Have you considered that perhaps restringing the entire piano might be a huge factor in improving the performance of this piano? New wire may well "reactivate" the 4th string sympathetic vibrations that you say are missing or too subtle. Good luck with the project.

Experiment with a few brass or lead weights - 50 to 150g. Place one on the bridge in various locations in the mid to upper tenor and see if there is any change.

You still are not answering the question: How do you know the aliquot strings are not working?

More test:
1. If I pluck individually these 4th strings from the first aliquot section (with damper individually raised) I have a clear tone, shorter and lighter than the equivalent normal string octave above (if I compare both plucking them). I think it's normal as these strings have different string sizes for the same pitch (and different bridges...).
2. The second partial of these unisons strings seems to me OK: if I hit them, with the equivalent note octave above damper raised, and later I left the key I hear clearly this octave running for resonance.
3. If I hit a key of this section and immediately stop the three unison (with damper yet raised) I don't hear anything from the 4th string. I can test it also putting softly a finger over it. Doesn't vibrate.
4. Only for the 4 or 5 first notes of this section the 4th string sounds when I play the octave above.
5. All the 4th strings from the second section (tunned as unison and connected them to the main bridge) vibrate freely. I can test it with the same finger...
All the best.

1. and 2. are what you would expect. 3. could be normal. You are not likely to be able to feel any vibration without damping it immediately, and whatever vibration there is will depend on how well it was set into motion, which is going to be very weak. 4. is probably normal, but it could also depend on the condition of the strings. 5. I suppose you did the same test: playing the note and damping the three struck strings. You should not get much sound from the 4th string, but maybe a little. Have you tried the opposite test: Strike the note and damp the 4th string. Do you hear any difference? If you do not, what is the point of going to the extra work and reduction of value of removing parts of the piano?

Now all of this supposes that the old strings sound like new strings. If that were true, there would be no point in restringing. Have you tried replacing a 4th string, to see if there is any difference?

Perhaps the most important question is that modifying the piano in this way will turn it from a $10,000 piano into a piano that you are not likely to be able to sell except as junk. Restoring it as is, if done well, should result in a piano worth $25,000 or more. What sort of results are you expecting that are worth that much money?

3. and 5. are the same test in the two different aliquot sections: 3 is not working and 5 yes. The audio test (my ear) confirm me again. I changed three aliquot strings and the results are identical to the old ones. Believe me or not the aliquot bridge in this grand is not working and probably (due its age) it's affecting the sound performance, specially in the killer octave (always the most delicate part and the place where it is placed). May be it's similar reason why the modern Blüthner grands have eliminated it...
All the best.

The 4th string in the mid-treble section from G4 is working correctly. This is the section where the 4th string is tuned an octave above the corresponding unison. The sympathetic vibrations that excite this piece of wire are working. The trouble is that the vibration and sound of this area are so faint and quickly gone that you do not realize this is how they work.

Yes, in this area not much difference is audible but it is there notwithstanding. There is less difference that you might be looking for.

So the idea is to take a unique, vintage instrument with the Blüthner patent action and aliquot; then to make changes eliminating the uniqueness and possibly destroying the vintage value of this instrument?

So after restoring 3 grand pianos as you have stated in previous postings you now come up with this?

A little story for you:

A couple of years back a local person got in touch with me. She had an 1897 Pleyel with Pleyel/Wolf/Lyon cast into the plate. This was in the time period when Gustave Lyons( acoustician) designed the “sale Pleyel” in Paris.

Well, she had the instrument rebuilt or so she thought. The Firmini wire (which is not made any longer) was taken out and replaced with Röslau. The double butted action was modified. The hammer set was replaced with Abel.

She wanted 12K for the instrument. I sent the pictures to France for a couple of technicians to look over.

I was told the instrument was maybe worth about 1000.00 if she was lucky enough to sell it at all.

Unique value reduced to zero.

Antique value reduced to zero.

Now? It is just another nice old piano......that is worthless.

Do what you want to the Blüthner. But remember that the people who built that instrument know far more about building and rebuilding a Blüthner than all of us here.

It is interesting (frightening!) how often people think that, despite admitting to having no prior experience in the matter on their part, they can "improve" the design of vintage pianos.

Experimentation is fine, but please do it on a 1970s Yamaha or Kawai. There are enough out there that we can afford to 'lose' some.

Leave the vintage pianos intact as the original builders intended. Sure, these instruments may have their shortcomings, as do just about all pianos. But it is not up to us to bastardize them in an effort to drag them into the 21st century.

Thanks for all your comments. All you have convinced me not to modify the aliquot bridge... Anyway, when I restringing, I'll test to reduce these 4th wire section, trying to make them more resonated...
Here you have a link how this grand is sounding actually
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=38371.0
Only the best.