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Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636892
12/07/05 09:06 PM
12/07/05 09:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 57
San Clemente, CA
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PianoGrappler Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2004
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San Clemente, CA
I have a nice Yam P202 upright in my living room that I inherited from a local church I tune for. It's about the age that the strings on the hammer flanges are mostly gone. I gasped when I saw the recent price hike on that item. I'm sure I paid about a third of that just a year or two ago. Strange that that legendarily 'technician friendly' corporation wouldn't offer that (obviously flawed) part for free, sort of as some consent to their wrong choice of materials.

So, of course I got to thinking. Maybe I could build a little jig to restring four or five flanges at a time. Replacing them with new flanges takes me (if I remember right) about 4-5 hours depending on how many hammers need to be traveled. If I could do the restringing in anything under 6 hours, it might be worth not buying the replacement flanges.

My questions are; what kind of string and what kind of glue would hold for the next 75 years, which is how long the rest of this excellent piano will no doubt play 'till it needs an overhaul.

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Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636893
12/07/05 09:30 PM
12/07/05 09:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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curry  Offline
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Hamilton Twp, NJ
You need to order silk action cord from Piantek or one of the other suppliers. If the flanges are in good condition, you don't need to replace them. Just cutt the correct lengths of the silk cord, and use a little Tite-Bond wood glue in each notch to glue the cord.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636894
12/07/05 09:37 PM
12/07/05 09:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 57
San Clemente, CA
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PianoGrappler Offline OP
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San Clemente, CA
Nice, thanks much Curry. I'll order it from Schaff. I was thinking of using something that sets up quicker than Titebond though. I also repair other stringed instruments, so I'm good with hot hide glue. I figure that would jell up and grip almost instantly. Also, I was considering thick CA...what you think 'bout that? Seems to be holding on my 20 year old RC models, think it'll go the next fifty?

Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636895
12/07/05 09:53 PM
12/07/05 09:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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curry  Offline
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Hamilton Twp, NJ
No hide glue. It is affected too much by temp/humidity, gets brittle eith age, and could cause clicks. It's not the right glue for the job. CA is too strong, and you may need to re do these again in the future. Either PVC-E or Elmers white glue will work, but I prefer the Tite-Bond.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
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Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636896
12/07/05 10:48 PM
12/07/05 10:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 57
San Clemente, CA
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PianoGrappler Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2004
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San Clemente, CA
I'm not intending to have to do these again. Even twenty years is much too short for one part in a piano that bullet proof. You're probably thinking of the bottled hide glue when you talk about humidity problems. Room temp hide glue does absorb water (at room temperature), but properly applied hot hide glue makes a more water proof joint than even the aliphatic resin glues, and is much more re-doable twenty years down the line because you can clean it out unlike modern 'wood' glues like titebond. Of course, this is not a 'joining' application, and it just might be less water resistant than the glues you suggest in this application.

Since the corporation in question hasn't given me the lowdown on why the old parts failed, and what they're doing to make the new ones better, I figure I'll just go ahead and make a better one myself. My aim is not to make one as good as the old, but to improve on the too short lifespan.

Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636897
12/07/05 11:09 PM
12/07/05 11:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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curry  Offline
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Hamilton Twp, NJ
PG, use whatever glue you want. Hot hide glue is not the appropriate choice for this application. It's not what was used in the factory for a good reason.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636898
12/08/05 01:18 AM
12/08/05 01:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,256
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Oakland
On the other hand, hide glue was used by many manufacturers, such as Chickering and Baldwin, not to mention a bunch of German companies, for the same purpose on pianos that went a lot longer without failure.


Semipro Tech
Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636899
12/08/05 08:23 AM
12/08/05 08:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,351
South Carolina
JIMBOB Offline
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South Carolina
I use PVC-E glue on the cords. I recently repaired an entire set of flanges on a Yamaha spinet. When I say repaired I got a full set of flanges with center pins and cords and swapped them out. The hammers in this model had brass plates with set screws so it was easy to do. The entire job was less than 2 hours and no glue was needed. I would avoid using CA glue


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Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636900
12/08/05 10:53 AM
12/08/05 10:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
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Dale Fox Offline
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Nor California Sacramento area
The last time I did this job I wrapped the silk cord around a 5/8" dowel in a nice tight spiral and then cut the cord staight down the side of the dowel for consistently and properly sized lengths of cord. Easier than measuring 88 individual pieces.

Dale


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636901
12/09/05 01:31 AM
12/09/05 01:31 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 605
Santa Clara, CA
velopresto Offline
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Santa Clara, CA
It's no big deal, it's just tedious. People have used various kinds of cord, from fishing line to nylon cord. I've even heard of people using dental floss. I used the black stuff from Schaff.

I did it as a first-timer in around 4 hours. Tom Cole, RPT, who gave a technical at a chapter meeting, says he does it in around two hours following these (his own) instructions:

Problem:
Hammer return spring cords are breaking due to unknown cause
Symptoms:
Cords have become a brownish color
Random breakage is occuring
Touchweight is affected on some notes; hammer sometimes falls into strings on slow release
Solutions:
Replace hammer flanges
Replace cords
Condition of action:
If condition of the hammers, pinning, and travelling/mating to strings all good, replace cords.
If pinning is poor then flange replacement may be a better option.
Cord Replacement Procedure:
1. Place action in action cradle
2. Remove hammer rest rail and treble bracket
3. Loosen hammer butt plate screws
4. Remove hammer assemblies from flanges and let hang from bridle wires
5. Straighten any bent return springs
6. Tighten all hammer/damper/wippen flange screws
7. Tilt action 90 so that the hammer flange cord slots face up
8. Using specially adapted shimming chisel, clean slots and vacuum up debris
9. Wrap 90+ turns on dowel with new cord and cut turns with razor
10. Glue one end of each piece to one slot on each flange
11. Return to the first flange and trim each cord to length
12. Glue other end to remaining slot; check with gauge
13. Replace hammers; tighten butt plate screws; hook springs under flange cords as you go
14. Replace hammer rest rail bracket and reinstall rest rail
15. Final check; jack springs engaged with jacks, spring cords in hook of hammer return springs, bridal tapes not twisted
Tools and Materials:
flange screwdriver
thin screwdriver
Phillips screwdriver
shimming chisel modified to clean flange slots
glue applicator (syringe) filled with Tightbond
end nippers with gauge
action cradle
replacement cord (braided Dacron of suitable diameter)
5/8" dowel [9/16"]
blunted scriber
gauge (dowel)
razor
forceps
damp rag


Dave Stahl
Dave Stahl Piano Service
Santa Clara, CA
Serving most of the greater SF Bay Area
http://dstahlpiano.net
Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636902
12/09/05 01:50 PM
12/09/05 01:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,855
Massachusetts
R
Roy123 Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Massachusetts
I did this job on a U1 and found the silk cord from Pianotek too large in diameter to fit into the existing slots. I ended up buying some high-tech fishing line that is holding up well so far.

Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636903
12/15/05 01:28 PM
12/15/05 01:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 57
San Clemente, CA
P
PianoGrappler Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 57
San Clemente, CA
Thanks to everyone for the excellent advice! I'm glad I waited to hear all this. I've done the flange swap job at least 4 times already (on yamahas), so I'm fairly confident about making my own cords, but now I've got no fear at all, at all. As I said, this is my own parlor piano, so whatever method I get comfy with should benefit my customers with prematurely aging cords. I'm still amazed at the short life of this part on virtually all yamaha uprights, which is why I have no interest in 'how they do it at the factory'. Which is not meant to be a dis on you curry, your advice is excellent, I just don't think the corporation is that infallable.

Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? #636904
12/23/05 05:53 AM
12/23/05 05:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 438
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, U...
Colin Crawford Offline
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Colin Crawford  Offline
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Posts: 438
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, U...
Quote
Originally posted by BDB:
On the other hand, hide glue was used by many manufacturers, such as Chickering and Baldwin, not to mention a bunch of German companies, for the same purpose on pianos that went a lot longer without failure.
It's not the glue that fails though is it? It's the cord!


G.Colin Crawford MPTA
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Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? [Re: Colin Crawford] #1335934
12/29/09 12:58 AM
12/29/09 12:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2
California
E
ElecPianoRepair Offline
Junior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2
California
That's right - it was the silk that failed. I have seen the problem on virtually every Yamaha upright I have checked out. I have replaced the flanges on two Yamaha consoles. I used dental floss and Tite Bond on both. I bought several different dental flosses to find one that was most like silk, but much tougher, and hopefully longer lasting. I didn't think of the fishing line, or I might have used that. I would not put silk back on - too much gluing to want to do it again.

Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? [Re: ElecPianoRepair] #1335940
12/29/09 01:04 AM
12/29/09 01:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,135
SW Missouri
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Sam Casey Offline
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SW Missouri
I don't see how cord replacement is cost effective. I always replace the flange. I don't find any resistance from the customers. With new flanges you have new flange pinning plus reinforced cords made for the purpose.

Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? [Re: ElecPianoRepair] #1336015
12/29/09 04:15 AM
12/29/09 04:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
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Dale Fox Offline
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Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted by data_river
That's right - it was the silk that failed. I have seen the problem on virtually every Yamaha upright I have checked out. I have replaced the flanges on two Yamaha consoles. I used dental floss and Tite Bond on both. I bought several different dental flosses to find one that was most like silk, but much tougher, and hopefully longer lasting. I didn't think of the fishing line, or I might have used that. I would not put silk back on - too much gluing to want to do it again.



Wow is this an old thread! 2005 no less.

Data river and anyone else who cares---- It wasn't silk cord used originally. It was cotton. That is why it failed. Yamaha makes them out of silk now. Why they didn't in the first place is anyone's guess.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? [Re: Dale Fox] #1336028
12/29/09 04:26 AM
12/29/09 04:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
The time due for the chords to break you can buy a new set of flanges, then repin the old one, so you have one in advance for cheaper repairs.

I belive that a set of flanges is cheaper than the time to do the job correctly (with some repinning)


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Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? [Re: Olek] #1336170
12/29/09 11:54 AM
12/29/09 11:54 AM
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Posts: 1,645
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Dave Stahl Offline
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This thread IS old, sort of like the cotton cords on a 25 year old Yamaha....

It took me around 3 hours to replace the cords last time I did it. It takes much longer to replace those that have the hammer butt without the metal plate.



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San Jose, CA
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Re: Restringing Yamaha hammer flanges? [Re: Dave Stahl] #1499389
08/19/10 04:48 PM
08/19/10 04:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1
San Francisco, CA
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wunderhund Offline
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I recently purchased an early 80's Yamaha P2 from a private seller. It appears there are a two loop cords broken. I realize I can expect more to break soon with a piano this age.

Is it only worth to do the repair if all the keys are done at the same time? If possible, I'd appreciate a ballpark estimate on the repair.

I'm only a beginner, so the difference in the action doesn't bother me at this time.

Thanks in advance.



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