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Dear all,

We'll be moving to a new house, with room for a grand piano!, within a few months. This means my search for a grand will start a bit sooner then expected also, as we don't like to see the living room half empty.

Expect a good number of questions here, as I still need quite some help.

One of my candidates is Estonia as I've read wonderful comments about them. One drawback is that I have to go abroad since there is no dealer in the country I live in. If it is well woth it I don't have a problem doing so, since a neighbouring country has a dealership however this is where I get confused... :
=> I've read that they are ranked in the top piano's, among Bosendorfer and Bechstein, however in another thread, I've read somewhere they were rated slightly higer then Yamaha C-series... that's certainly not in the same league as the others. what is it with the ranking? Are they tier 1? which subgroup? we don't have Larry Fine here... sorry

=> I've read about questionable aging in other sites as well as the tuningpins not holding on very well causing the piano to get out of tune easily... what is true about this?

I thought that Estonia could be a very afordfable high quality piano but I'm starting to doubt that now.

Which piano's are actually tier 1 and have the best value for money according to you guys? Bosendrofer for instance is way out of budget for us. we're looking somewhere in the price-range of Seiler with a high max of around 40.000 euro. The idea is to get a size somewhere between 190 and 210 cm. Bosendorfers for instance are almost double that budget.

Your help is very much appreciated,

Thanks,

PS

The link at left for the Piano Buyer will lead you to the tiered ratings. The ratings are somewhat subjective and not absolute. For example, it would be stupid to exclude a piano from your search because it happens to be listed one tier lower than another.

Hype on this forum is another matter. It has led me to instruments I may not otherwise have tried. Some have been pleasant surprises while others have been real disappointments after all the virtual hyping...

In the current edition, the Estonia is considered tier two, along with upper-end Schimmels, Mason & Hamlin, the "lower" Academy series Bechstein, and other makers.

Hey,

I've looked a bit through the online book but didn't really find any ratings. A lot of impressions though, thanks for that. Princing seems somewhat different in the US. Seiler for example seems a lot more expensive...

Anyway, is Estonia a good idea? Princing is sure ok, but also here some comments reagrding tuning, voicing, regulation...

PS

Please be aware that the seller in Hannover has closed shop, before considering driving there! If that wasn't your dealer, ignore.

There is almost a weekly thread on Estonia pianos here at PianoWorld. The result of that is that an average poster looking for information cannot discern between general information, happy but relatively clueless owners and genuine praise by independent sources.

For me it boiled down to this: Estonias are worth a lengthy drive and some expenses to try out. I did that, and the Estonia 168 was the only one apart from a Steinway D and a Bechstein A 228 that brought a huge smile to my face while playing. So I bought an Estonia 168 and couldn't be happier

With a brand-new piano in your price range, tuning stability and build quality are no issue to concern yourself with (IMHO). They will all be fantastic pianos and if there is a problem, it's either a lemon (happens to every brand) or improper care (happens with every brand). Would you choose a brand with 5 lemons per 10.000 pianos over a piano you looooove sound-wise but think it has 15 lemons per 10.000 pianos?

Edit: The ratings are on page 46 in the online edition. I am not aware of any other rating system except for this one.

Pianostudent77,

Where about in Europe are you living; could not find any location in your profile?

Perhaps I could be of some help as there are now quite a few new Estonia dealerships in Europe.

schwammerl, Belgium (Estonia 168)

Estonia 168 and 190 are gorgeous pianos. They really, really are.

If you asked me the 'best value' question five years ago, I would have most certainly answered with a resounding 'yes!'.

However, their prices have gone up considerably in the last several years.
Although they remain excellent instruments and are still, imo, a very good value for money, I would NO LONGER consider them 'THE best value for money'.

Might I suggest that you stop thinking about the tiers that 'someone else' has created for the buying public?

Think in terms of what a piano sounds and plays like TO YOU, not to someone else.

Try out many pianos and see which one you enjoy and THAT is where you should invest your musical future of playing and enjoyment.

you have many pianos available in Europe that will never see Kansas City. (I am so happy with my 168)

Hi Pianostudent77,

You can find the ratings on page 46.

In my search for a grand, Estonia was also one of the favourites. But just like you, having no dealer at the moment in Belgium (and consequently not being sure of a perfect after-sale service and maintenance) made me decide to cross it out of my list.

To echo the comments of others, don't turn away from Estonia simply because of its tier ranking in Piano Buyer's Guide, or because of a few negative comments on some thread. Here at PW, you'll see that most major brands, including top ones, get nitpicked for problems, some real, some perceived. I haven't played Estonia myself, but all indications are that it's a very good brand. I'd try it if I could find it.

Also, for great deals at your price point, I'd check out Shigeru Kawai as well. Seems like several folks on PW ended up choosing between Estonia and Shigeru.

Happy hunting.

This will need to be answered by discriminating piano shoppers.

Let's not forget that once you step into higher tier groups both expextations and prices climb steeply.

Questions of design, quality of components, manufactured quality, tradition of company and musical expression of the instrument become increasingly important to justify price.

Comparing all of these is what shoppers usually do and based on current prices Estonia appears to be one tough act to beat.

In fact after careful examination, I know of no other high end piano that offers "so much for so little".

Notwithstanding preference of buyers for a different type tone offered by largely more expensive others in or near same group.

Norbert

Hi Bunneh,

What do you mean exactly. Do you mean Finkenstein is completely closing down his piano shop.
Since a while on his website it says "Wir siehen um!":

Finkenstein

schwammerl.

Dear all,

Thanks for all the input so far. It is very difficult to choose I think... I could find piano's to my liking (tone and touch wise) in different brands. I've already come accross a Seiler and a Bosendorfer which I both liked very much. Of course the Bosendorfer is out of reach financially but still I was thinking... If I can't really decide based upon tone and touch, I need some other criteria as well... such as aging and build quality and others... that's how I came to the tiers again... seems like the higher the hier rank, the higher the quality... does that makes sense?

Shwammerl, Kwartvleugel,

I'm also located in Belgium! Indeed, no more Estonia dealer in Belgium. I'd like to visit Bol in Tilburg Holland who sells them but to buy... don't know, I'm not certain about crossborder service and maintenance. I've read Estonia's need a fair amount of prepping in the online guide... so maybe another brand sold here could be better, don't know...

Regarding tone and touch my main criteria are that the sound is warm and rich, I don't like bright sounding piano's and that the touch is light and smooth (they which they almost all are these days), so these criteria probably wont be enough to decide finally.

Is Shigeru Kawai sold at Kawai dealers? I don't know any in Belgium... do they get bright with age as yamaha's do?

Greetings,

PS

Well! Tilburg is not very far from anywhere in Belgium- so get going!

When I was seriously shopping a few years ago, Estonia was only available in the US or via a factory visit. As a consequence I have still never played one. It will be interesting to hear your views when you have.

Regarding my idea of a birght sound... the Grotrian Steinwegs I played (2) sounded quite alike and very bright to my ears... so even if others like them very much I've already ruled them out for this reason, apart from that... I remember they were also over budget, somewhere over 50.000 euro if I remember well...

PS

Kawais are generally regarded as more mellow than Yamahas (which in turn are not as bright as they once were). All pianos brighten a little with age due to hardening of the felt on the hammers, which can be fixed with periodic voicing. I don't think Shigerus are any worse than other high-end pianos in this regard. The ones I played on certainly didn't sound excessively bright.

Shigerus are sold at select Kawai dealers. If you visit a Kawai dealer, call ahead first to make sure they carry them and have some in stock.

"One of my candidates is Estonia as I've read wonderful comments about them. "

I would advice you to go and play grands at a number of dealers instead of reading about pianos. Then you might reach very different conclusions.

Pianostudent77, it's difficult to define value in an absolute sense, because in practice this word's meaning is determined with reference to budget. It might be better to just audition as many pianos as are within reasonable traveling distance and choose the one whose tone you like best and whose price is within budget.

All pianos benefit from preparation. You might want to ask dealers what they did, to prepare a piano for sale. Here's a link to a gold-standard preparation regimen.

This will, IMO, prove to be the biggest hurdle. I think that Estonias' tone will do well, here. Please see AJF's Visited Piano Row thread for opinions about touch. The negative aspects may be a result of action geometry or may be simply a matter of insufficient preparation. It would be interesting to learn your opinion of touch, after you've visited the new dealer's shop. (You might want to play first, then ask about preparation.)

Choosing a piano is ultimately an emotional decision. We often react differently on different days, so multiple auditions are best.

Pianostudent77,



This is old fact. The former dealer in Belgium indeed disappeared but there is now a new one since about 1 1/2 months. This also happens to be the dealer who services my Estonia since moere than a yera now, so from before he took Estonia pianos on board:

Jacek & Svetlo

schwammerl.

If it was me choosing between a Shigeru Kawai and an Estonia I think the two most relevant factors would that would have me choosing the Shigeru Kawai over the Estonia would be (in my opinion) the SK's solid action and Estonia's questionable resale value compared to the Shigeru.

I auditioned the Estonia over a year ago and came to the same independent conclusion that AJF and Gutenberg in AJF's "visit to piano row" came to- that although the Estonia had a beautiful tone it was lacking in it's touch. AJF said he had a hard time "connecting to the Estonia". I had the same experience due the lack of tactile feedback I also did not feel to be "at one" with this piano. The Estonia's less than stellar touch I felt was limiting to me to perform at my best with fast technical pieces. Some good pianists would be able to adapt to this shortcoming, my question being- why should you at these prices? The touch of the Estonia 168 and 190 can be described- and pardon my loss for words as "springy" or "mushy". It just did not have that solid feel and feedback that a well made European piano or Japanese has.

As for resale you have to remember that's a critical factor. Who says that one day you may want to upgrade to another in the future? It's hard to discern what the resale value of the Estonia piano really is because resale values appear to me at least to fluctuate wildly. I inquired about the Estonia 190 I auditioned and the salesman from a respected Estonia dealer (and one that Dr. Laul had visited a month earlier in Sarasota Fl) was asking for $17,000+ including the trade-in of my practically new Kawai RX-2. This particular 190 built in 2005 was frequently rented by a local church but was in very good condition. Another poster on these boards was able to purchase from a dealer who also posts on these boards what looked to be a mint condition, though used 2005 Estonia for LESS than the cost of a brand NEW RX-2! This Estonia 190 was personally autographed by Dr. Laul and personally played by Dr. Laul prior to the owner handing over a check. (Much to the delight of Estonia fans here at pianoworld!) So my question at that point is what exactly is the resale value of this piano? Should anyone selling their Estonia 190 4 years after their purchase expect the piano to depreciate that quickly? One particular Estonia owner/poster here lamented that he was unable to unload his Estonia 190 when he wanted to upgrade to a Steinway B. There were no takers because no one outside of Pianoworld really ever heard of Estonia Pianos (in his own words). I don't think you would have that problem with a Shigeru Kawai.

As I've said in previous posts the Estonia is a beautiful piano. In terms of fit and finish its up there with the Shigeru Kawai. It has a gorgeous tone both in the 168 and 190. It's action to me however leaves a much to be desired, because the touch is in my opinion the critical factor that allows you to truly connect with the instrument. It's what makes it an extension of you. It is YOU who has to command the piano not the piano dictating how it should be played. Without a world class touch I don't know how you can call it a world class instrument. As others have stated, maybe Dr Laul should reevaluate the Renner action and then we can talk. I would be the first fanboy in line.

(As an aside that would be one of my criticisms of the Piano Buyer. Larry Fine talks to technicians and rates his pianos accordingly, but he doesn't appear to discuss the pianos with the musicians who play them. One concert pianists/business owner's opinion on what makes a good action might not necessarily apply to the majority's preferences)

If the Estonia's action, tone, price meet your needs, by all means BUY it, but as everyone says there are other choices both in the same price range or less that may interest you. I've written glowing reviews about the 190 and 168 in the past and have a lot of good things to say about the piano, so I'm not bashing the brand but raising some questions (read my previous posts "Most excellent adventure...") . Relative to a few more expensive and higher rated pianos it is still a very good buy, but there are others in the same purported "TIer" that may be an even better buy. There may be some dealers here who will want to take apart this post but you have to realize they have a financial stake in the success of this brand. Posts such as these are nothing more than one man's opinion and you should be able to formulate your own. Every brand here gets scrutinized to the same degree so no one should get bent out of shape.

Good luck in your search!