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Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149520
04/12/05 08:15 AM
04/12/05 08:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 67
Alberta, Canada
2play4U Offline OP
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Alberta, Canada
My SIL, just got a 1999 Baldwin Artist Grand, 7 ft for $34,000 US. Is this a good price? Since, I can't find a dealer close by, what is the value of this piano new, and with myself still looking, would you consider a Baldwin with the 25 yr warranty, Renner action?
Thanks


Mike
Estonia 168 in ebony polish, serial no. 1378
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149521
04/12/05 08:21 AM
04/12/05 08:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,306
Timonium, MD
Christopher P. Smith Offline
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Timonium, MD
I don't know. . .

Personally, I would not buy a new Baldwin.

Not because its not a good piano, but I don't trust Gibson!


Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
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Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149522
04/12/05 08:29 AM
04/12/05 08:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,171
Wisconsin
markjpcs Offline
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Why don't you trust Gibson?

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149523
04/12/05 09:55 AM
04/12/05 09:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,114
El Cajon, California
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Steve Ramirez Offline
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Baldwin has made some of the best performance pianos ever built. Still, I would be very reluctant to shop for one because of all the trials and tribulations of Baldwin over the past few years. It would take a real screaming bargain to make me seriously consider buying one.

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149524
04/12/05 09:57 AM
04/12/05 09:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
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on the other hand Baldwins can be super excellent pianos...


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149525
04/12/05 11:04 AM
04/12/05 11:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,306
Timonium, MD
Christopher P. Smith Offline
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Maybe my choice of words was not the best.
Lets just say I feel very similar to the way Steve Ramirez does. I PERSONALLY would not buy a brand new Baldwin.


Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149526
04/12/05 11:21 AM
04/12/05 11:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 77
M
marlboro-man Offline
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Baldwin is and has been going through changes...so what?

They are owned by Gibson guitars...so what, Steinway is owned by Selmer/Conn band instruments.

Baldwin has a pianos made in Mexico and China...so Yamaha Kawai Samick etc all have factories and parts of pianos made in China.

The fact remains Baldwin are excellent instruments. A 1999 SF (or what ever the 6'11 model is) Baldin grand for $34K IS a good price. New they sell for around $60K.

Baldwin for years riveled the almighty Steinway. For good reason. They are fantastic instruments.

I say if you like it, but it.


R.I.P Retired Industry Professional
Sales for: Steinway Yamaha Kawai
NY DC and LA markets
Short term store management, mostly roaming floor lizard
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149527
04/12/05 11:27 AM
04/12/05 11:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 77
M
marlboro-man Offline
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** buy it


R.I.P Retired Industry Professional
Sales for: Steinway Yamaha Kawai
NY DC and LA markets
Short term store management, mostly roaming floor lizard
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149528
04/12/05 12:01 PM
04/12/05 12:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3
Dallas Texas
C
CC Offline
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Dallas Texas
There are plenty of x-Baldwin dealers that would
take even less to unload old Baldwin stock and
stop the interest. Count me as one but the SF's are truly great instruments that
rival Steinway, surpass Yamaha and are concert
quality to the core.


Chris Climer
WorldwidePiano.com
Dallas Texas.
214-987-9899
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149529
04/12/05 12:05 PM
04/12/05 12:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,306
Timonium, MD
Christopher P. Smith Offline
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Timonium, MD
"New they sell for around $60K"

Ouch!


Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149530
04/12/05 12:12 PM
04/12/05 12:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 77
M
marlboro-man Offline
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The US Baldwins are VERY expensive to produce. The labor, materials, etc. Prices have always been par with Steinway.

This is a major reason why most of the US piano builders..stopped. Can't keep up with Asian technology, cheap labor,& resources.

BUT they are fantastic instruments. It's a shame to see a giant like Baldwin going through such tough times.

Again if you like it, buy it.
You will be very pleased.


R.I.P Retired Industry Professional
Sales for: Steinway Yamaha Kawai
NY DC and LA markets
Short term store management, mostly roaming floor lizard
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149531
04/12/05 12:21 PM
04/12/05 12:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,306
Timonium, MD
Christopher P. Smith Offline
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Timonium, MD
Actually, thats good to know. I suppose my experience with Baldwin is only what I have played and HEARD from my competing reps, so naturally I am sure some of it is untrue.


Representing Yamaha, Story and Clark, and other fine instruments
Menchey Music Service
Associate Member of PTG
Serving Central Pennsylvania and the Greater Baltimore Area
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149532
04/12/05 12:33 PM
04/12/05 12:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 37
Midwest
C
Captain_J Offline
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From my understanding, the Baldwin SF-10 (7') is an outstanding Tier 1 piano (according to Fine) that can compete with most anything in its class. During that time period (1999) Baldwin was going through some financial difficulty and had some "spotty" quality control problems. As long as the piano was checked out by a good tech, then it should be of little concern.

The price of $34K for this piano appears to be a descent deal. I have noticed advertisements in the past that had new SF-10's from this era that were purchased in Baldwin's bankruptcy proceedings for slightly under $30K (advertised), but I am unsure of the warranty status of those pianos as well as the current availability. I have also noticed several SF-10's (10years old or less) advertised in the $26-35 range from private parties.

It appears that several people on the forum have a bias against Baldwin which I believe came as a result of their bankruptcy in which they dropped most of their longtime dealers (many with hard feelings). I believe most of the reservations are due to company management policies and not necessarily the overall quality of their Artist Grand Pianos (although many required additional dealer prep).

If a warranty is important to you, purchasing through an authorized Baldwin dealer on either Pre-Gibson (25yr/10yr) or Gibson (lifetime/10yr) could be important. Personally, due to the extremely low warranty rate on most good quality grand pianos the financial value of the warranty is probably not very valuable in most instances.

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149533
04/12/05 12:50 PM
04/12/05 12:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
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well I'm glad people agree with me..


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149534
04/12/05 12:55 PM
04/12/05 12:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 345
Calgary
Ancient Maestro Offline
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Calgary
My friend owns an SF-10 Baldwin and says the top offer that he received to sell his piano is $30K cdn tops, or $25K US. At least with the market here $34K US would be $9K too rich. His piano is in excellent condition and well maintained with a player on it.

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149535
04/12/05 01:06 PM
04/12/05 01:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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Hamilton Twp, NJ
I had an SF-10, new in 2000. Given the same amount of prep needed for a new Steinway, they can indeed be truly great pianos.
However an SF-10, or any Baldwin model from 1999 can have quite a few problems. Let's just say the writing was on the wall, and the factory workers just did not give a lot of attention to detail during manufacture.
Having said that, you need the piano checked by a competent Technician who has an eye for the problems encountered during this period. If the piano checks out, you'll have a great instrument.

Be aware, no Baldwin product manufactured prior to early 2002 is warranted by the Gibson company. If the dealer will cover you under his own, fine.
Gibson will look into warranty issues on pre-Gibson pianos on a case by case basis if a major problem ever arises.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149536
04/12/05 01:16 PM
04/12/05 01:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 37
Midwest
C
Captain_J Offline
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I don't know if Ancient Maesto's friend was offered the ($25K U.S.) from an individual or a dealer, but it sounds like that may be the approximate resale value of a late model SF-10. I obviously would expect there to be a markup going through any dealer.

From a value standpoint, assuming a Badlwin SF-10 (recent / like new) can be had for $25k-$30k U.S. are there any other seven foot tier 1 pianos that can be had in a similar price range ??

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149537
04/12/05 01:28 PM
04/12/05 01:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 37
Midwest
C
Captain_J Offline
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Originally posted by curry:
Be aware, no Baldwin product manufactured prior to early 2002 is warranted by the Gibson company. If the dealer will cover you under his own, fine.
Gibson will look into warranty issues on pre-Gibson pianos on a case by case basis if a major problem ever arises. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Curry -

From my understanding, even pre-2002 piano's that are sold new for the first time will be covered by Baldwin/Gibson under their 25yr parts/10 year labor warranty as long as its sold through an authorized dealer. New Baldwins (post Gibson purchase) receive the (lifetime/10yrs) warranty. This is from my recent firsthand purchase experience and confirmed through Baldwin/Gibson.

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149538
04/12/05 02:10 PM
04/12/05 02:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,195
Axtremus Offline
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2play4U,

Your fist post reads like your SIL has already purchased the SF-10. If that is the case, I congratulate your SIL on the purchase of the piano.

Other data points that may be of interest:

In the Fall of 2003, I saw a C&A Baldwin SD-10 (the 9' concert grand, mid-1990's vintage) tagged around $35000 for sale in the US North East. That same store also had several pre-Gibson SF-10's all tagged at below $28000. Those are Fall 2003 numbers, make of them what you will.

Would have been very tempted by that SD-10 had I had the room for a 9-footer at the time. smile

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149539
04/12/05 02:12 PM
04/12/05 02:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Cincinnati
mikhailoh Offline
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Cincinnati
Ok.. that's that's the story today. Although I grew up with Baldwin tattooed on my forehead, I have to say i would be skeptical of buying one today.

Yes, Steinway is owned by Selmer-Conn.. but did they invalidate the warranties on pianos sold before they bought the company?

Now.. before anyone else mentions it, I bought a Pramberger under dubious circumstances.. but there was only the question of the future, not whether or not a continuoudsly operating company would honor the warranty.

Big difference between $10K and $34K. Had they offered the SD10 for $20K or so.. risk vs. reward.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149540
04/12/05 04:52 PM
04/12/05 04:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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Hamilton Twp, NJ
Captain_J, everything sold prior to November 2001 is not coverd by Gibson.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149541
04/12/05 05:19 PM
04/12/05 05:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,406
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Not hoping to disappoint anyone here, but at least from the *Canadian West Coast experience*, the price stated would be impossible for us to get.

We had the exact same model here on consignment for over one year and were only asking around $ 20,000

We threw the [garbage...] hammers out and had a new set of custom Ables flown in from Germany.

The geometry in the action was always a nightmare as well: there were way too many weights in the bass to do a real good touch-weight regulation job.

Renner stack on Baldwins ill-designed keys: poor match,sorry!

Sound was *good*, but never really *great* and certainly not *refined* for a piano that size.

The owner eventually did sell it for Can $20,000 himself and all I learned in the process is to never take another one on trade or consignment again.

Ever. frown

norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149542
04/12/05 05:29 PM
04/12/05 05:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 352
Piano Peddler Offline
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Craig Smith
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Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149543
04/12/05 05:41 PM
04/12/05 05:41 PM
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Posts: 352
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Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149544
04/12/05 06:22 PM
04/12/05 06:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 37
Midwest
C
Captain_J Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by curry:
Captain_J, everything sold prior to November 2001 is not covered by Gibson.
Curry -

I agree that everything sold prior to Nov. 2001 is only covered on a case by case basis by Gibson. However, if a piano was produced pre-Gibson (be it 2001, 1999, etc.) and was not sold as new until after Gibson purchased Baldwin's assets (i.e. sold 2002-2005) then it will receive a 25yr. parts/10 yr. labor warranty if sold from an authorized Baldwin dealer.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is how it was explained to me from my dealer as well as Baldwin/Gibson customer service.

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149545
04/12/05 06:26 PM
04/12/05 06:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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Captain, you were told the truth. Only new pianos the dealer had in his store after Gibson took over were covered.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149546
04/12/05 06:44 PM
04/12/05 06:44 PM
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Posts: 37
Midwest
C
Captain_J Offline
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Norbert -

I am surprised by your comments on the Baldwin SF-10 that you had in on consignment. It must have been very old or in very poor condition (compared to the original posters 1999 model). If I could have found a like new in excellent shape SF-10 for $20K Canadian during my search I would have been thrilled.

I actually played a SF-10 during my search on the same day as an Estonia 190 and (imo) thought the SF-10 was the superior instrument. I guess my tastes don't always follow the current trend....

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149547
04/12/05 07:40 PM
04/12/05 07:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,406
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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There nothing wrong with your observation:
for certain type of music [Boogie... wink ]:
I totally agree with you!

The piano we had here was exactly 10 years old.

Personally I always liked the bigger Baldwins:
the 9' has always been a GREAT piano and one of my own favourites!

This particualar one,however, just didn't seem to cut it - especially when playing it for extended periods of time.

It would be a joke, if a good 7' grand wouldn't be able to *take on* a smaller grand. Fact of the matter, however, is that the customer traded it against a 6'1 Sauter.

Wishing all Baldwin owners here the very best and certainly much joy with their own intruments! smile

norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149548
04/12/05 08:07 PM
04/12/05 08:07 PM
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Axtremus Offline
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Quote
Piano Peddler wrote:

"If your friend had bought a 1999 Steinway B for $34K, assuming it had not been in a fire or flood, everyone on this forum would be congratulating you on an exceptional deal. The SF10 is absolutely equal in quality, despite the corporate problems and transition that Baldwin has been through."
Could be, and a valid point at that, but quality does not by itself translate to market price. I think Hondas are higher quality cars than Mercedes, but the market values Mercedes at higher prices anyway.

Quote
Piano Peddler wrote:

"Does anyone know if the Burgett brothers are honoring warranty claims on Mason & Hamlin pianos built prior to 1995? Of course, Steinway warranties are only five years. Any concert quality piano is worth more based on its design elements as a musical instrument, not what the corporate policies of the manufacturer happen to be."
Good point, fair comparisons. I am myself curious about M&H's warranty policy at the time soon after the Burgett buy-out. Certainly a fair point disassociating corporate policy from piano pricing.

But I am not convinced that the market values "design elements as a musical instrument" when determining prices (eventhough I think that philosophy sounds very good and I like it). If nothing else, we often hear claims/sales pitches that goes like this: "This piano has such-and-such design elements also used in pianos twice its price but this piano can be sold cheap for this-and-that reasons." These claims/sales pitches contradict the assertion that pianos are to be priced by "design elements as a musical instrument."

Re: Baldwin Artist Grand 7ft #149549
04/12/05 08:23 PM
04/12/05 08:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,406
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Ax:

"Hondas better than Mercedes"?

All across the board? wink

[Good this isn't a car Forum.... laugh ]

norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
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