2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Spring Into Sound Sale
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
34 members (ColonelBogey, Animisha, Bett, Djengis, Boboulus, David B, chronos1701, DaveX, 6 invisible), 320 guests, and 441 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Kawai James #1491991 08/09/10 07:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
James, I'm being intentionally obtuse.

dewster #1492016 08/09/10 08:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,282
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,282
You mean bloody obtuse, surely? wink

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Kawai James #1492021 08/09/10 08:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Haha! Yes, bloody obtuse!

dewster #1492163 08/09/10 10:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by TADutchman
Not really an issue with advanced sampling technology: a looped decay can easily be brought back to life by dynamic layering of coherent piano samples, if a DP supports that.

And that DP would be ...?


The ES6 does that.

emenelton #1492199 08/09/10 11:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Originally Posted by emenelton
The ES6 does that.

Do you mean layering one piano voice with a different piano voice? Or with the same piano voice? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

dewster #1492348 08/10/10 04:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by dewster
Do you mean layering one piano voice with a different piano voice? Or with the same piano voice?

You're quite right, dewster: it has to do with successful layering and dynamical timbre matching of two piano voices from the same soundgroup (e.g. Piano 1)! cool

I have discovered and documented that the new Kawai CA93/CA63 can do this very well (not the previous generation CA111/CA91/CA61/..), meaning that tweaking, i.e. enhancing the factory presets, is extremely worthwhile and effective! See for instance my Brilliant Classical Piano R2.2 preset and/or the Pinipon variation here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1448603/2.html

So far, I haven't found any Yamaha CLP or Roland HP series that can even do the basics of this ultra dynamic piano sound generation technique (yes, I've checked the user manuals), but be my guest... crazy


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
Kawai James #1492396 08/10/10 05:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,286
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,286
James, I have one of these:

http://www.musiciansbuy.com/Roland-KSG8-Stage-Keyboard-Stand.html

But the anally retentive weirdo in me would have a problem with a Nord keyboard sitting atop a Roland stand (yes, all my foods face label side out in the cupboards, CDs all in alphabetical order, air vents in the car all have to line up the same way etc etc) - but it is a good stand. I could spray it to conceal the Roland name...but I like the way it is written up the pedestal so not sure.

The Nord probably looks good on your stand at home...the slightly splayed thin legs remind me a bit of a Rhodes, albeit they are not chrome.

Cheers,

Steve

EssBrace #1492466 08/10/10 08:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
With the ES6, multiples of the octave and 12th resonate while those keys are depressed and the corresponding notes are struck - the instrument has nice evolving sustained sonorities because of it.
That is one of the reasons for the 192 note polyphony.

emenelton #1492472 08/10/10 08:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
emenelton, from a different perspective you're also right: a rich string resonance implementation (which has been remarkably improved compared to previous generation Kawai models), adds a lot to the complexity of decaying notes. Until now and as far as I know, dewster could not analytically evaluate this for recent Kawai DP's, because of lacking support for string resonance when running midi-files, right?


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
TADutchman #1492518 08/10/10 10:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
This is my pro ES6 statement

a. The built in speakers - sound like a real piano
b. looping is not noticible.
c. the normal voicing has a very rich baldwin/kawai character
d. the temperment renders complex chords very naturally
e. the action, I think would be considered on the lightweight side
f. Harmonic Imaging causes multiples of the octave and 12th to resonate while those keys are depressed and the corresponding notes are struck - the instrument has nice evolving sonorities because of it
g. no evident velocity switching
h. no evident grouping of 3 adjacent notes having come from the same sample set

I am very happy with it. Most pianos I played, when I sustained chords, always folded into a very static sonority once the looping took over. The ES6 does not.

emenelton #1495656 08/14/10 03:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,410
J
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,410
Concerning the amount of sample (flash-) ROM that has been discussed here several times, we finally crossed the GB border:

YAMAHA Motf XF - 741MB Rom sounds (don't know if the piano's are any better than before) and...up to 2GB of Flash-ROM

Still nothing in comparison to the industry grade big and fast SSD I have in my laptop, but nevertheless...

I guess if you want to upgrade to the full 2GB you have to sell your house by the way, but we'll see ;-)

TADutchman #1495682 08/14/10 06:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Originally Posted by TADutchman
Until now and as far as I know, dewster could not analytically evaluate this for recent Kawai DP's, because of lacking support for string resonance when running midi-files, right?

True. Of the three I've tested - MP5, CA63, CN33 - I haven't been able to detect any obvious sympathetic resonance via MIDI playback. It's one of those hidden gotchas that really should be addressed. Every time I see this problem I can't help but speculate if these things are turned off for a reason - perhaps the processor is too wimpy to handle the extra minor load? For me it is a rather ominous sign.

dewster #1495755 08/14/10 10:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,171
The ES6 triggers samples at multiples of the octave and compound 5th. to generate it's resonance.

dewster #1495778 08/14/10 11:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by dewster
Every time I see this problem I can't help but speculate if these things are turned off for a reason

Well, for me as a CA93 owner there is no problem, as this does not influence playing enjoyment. Nevertheless, given there are some technical implementation complexities that cannot be easily reverse engineered now, this could be somewhat frustrating for you.

We'll see what new features the upcoming firmware update(s) will bring. Anyway, in general Kawai response on customer inquiries and requests is excellent! If what I've already discovered so far is an indication, then there's still some headroom in both hardware and software, to be uncovered anytime soon. smile


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
TADutchman #1496359 08/15/10 08:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,286
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,286
Just picked up the August edition of Sound On Sound magazine...Nord Piano reviewed. Clearly the reviewer liked it, so much so that he bought the review piano.

The review is well worth a read and goes into some depth. But there is a telling paragraph within the review that goes a little bit like this (reviewer refers to the Nord Piano as the NP88):

I won't beat around the bush: I think the Nord Piano is fantastic. In a world of computer-based, multi-gigabyte piano libraries that eat up even the latest multi-core CPUs, the NP88 demonstrates what can be achieved with sample sets that are a mere fraction of that size. Forensic-style investigation of some of the instruments in the Nord Piano Library will indeed reveal subtle changes in tonality between the keygroups and velocity layers the sound designers have employed, but in any normal performance situation this is of vanishing significance and can't be noticed. On the contrary, I was repeatedly struck by just how natural and three-dimensional the sounds are. The way they respond to changes in touch is wonderfully progressive, and decay tails are rich and complex, with virtually no perceptible looping or 'ringing', even after many seconds have elapsed. The sympathetic resonance feature contributes a great deal and compared to the rather shimmery, artificial-sounding implementation you'll find on some Japanese stage pianos, this is in a different league.

Well..."forensic-style investigation"...he's clearly heard of Dewster and his work! And I guess he is telling us that there is stretching and velocity layers that are audible under certain circumstances. The looping issue is more important to me and this article encourages me to at least go out and find one to try.

The article confirms that the Fatar keys are untextured and do not feature escapement simulation but the action is described as "fast and smooth" and "just on the weighty side of average".

Cheers,

Steve

EssBrace #1496376 08/15/10 09:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,282
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,282
Thanks for typing that extract Steve, and best of of luck with your search. Looking forward to reading your thoughts about the Nord.

Congrats to dewster too - seems like your protestations are starting to get noticed beyond PianoWorld. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Kawai James #1496378 08/15/10 09:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,286
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,286
Thanks James...the Nord is a persistent itch I've got to scratch now. The cream the doctor gave me didn't work!

EssBrace #1496383 08/15/10 09:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,282
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,282
Scratch it Steve, scratch it! wink

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
EssBrace #1496389 08/15/10 10:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Clearly the reviewer liked it, so much so that he bought the review piano.

Hmm. Is that good form? I mean, should he come right out and say something like that in the review itself? Maybe he got a good deal on it because it's a demo and that influenced his decision. Or maybe he got a good deal on it because he was giving it a good review. It smacks of bias to me, like something you'd read in a Musician's Friend catalog "review".

Quote
I won't beat around the bush: I think the Nord Piano is fantastic. In a world of computer-based, multi-gigabyte piano libraries that eat up even the latest multi-core CPUs ...

He makes adequately sized sample sets sound like a bad thing.

Quote
... the NP88 demonstrates what can be achieved with sample sets that are a mere fraction of that size.

He makes the decades-long tyranny of orders-of-magnitude too small sample sets sound like a good thing.

Quote
Forensic-style investigation of some of the instruments in the Nord Piano Library...

"Forensic" is a really great way to put it. It's a total crime they way they butcher an otherwise excellently sampled piano in order to get it into 10 cents of Flash.

Quote
... will indeed reveal subtle changes in tonality between the keygroups and velocity layers the sound designers have employed ...

I agree with you Steve, he's saying that can hear stretching and layer switching.

Quote
... but in any normal performance situation this is of vanishing significance and can't be noticed.

Nothing to see here, move along.

He's saying in a mix or in a live situation it will be much less audible, which is always true with every DP. I believe he's implying that it isn't solo recording quality, which is no surprise given the size of the sample.

Quote
On the contrary, I was repeatedly struck by just how natural and three-dimensional the sounds are. The way they respond to changes in touch is wonderfully progressive, and decay tails are rich and complex, with virtually no perceptible looping or 'ringing', even after many seconds have elapsed.

I believe he's saying he can sometimes hear looping, but only after many seconds. He certainly paints a pretty picture, though I'm not sure how any looping at all can be seen as a glass half full.

Quote
The sympathetic resonance feature contributes a great deal and compared to the rather shimmery, artificial-sounding implementation you'll find on some Japanese stage pianos ...

I think that's a jab at Yamaha.

Thanks for that Steve!

dewster #1496675 08/15/10 06:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,410
J
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,410
Although I agree with al lot of Dewster's sceptism about the developments in hardware instruments the last , let's say, 10 years - I'm not convinced that more ROM/RAM automatically results in better quality products. I've seen too many gazillion MB software instruments coming by that sound like complete crap and/or are unusable to play in real life use.

Don't get me wrong , I agree manufacturers of most hardware products are (intentionally ?) way behind the developments in computer-land in many respects. But simply adding more memory is only partial fix; a whole other approach to define what the 'instruments' should and should not be seems more appropriate. If they seriously read the many threads they might get enough ideas in what direction most customers would like to see things going. I think a more serious, reliable and easy to use integration between High-Quality hardware and computer based sound generation is one way , but there may be others... And as long as it is well done, people are still willing to pay for a good product and they wouldn't have to cram out such enormous amounts of underwhelming products and recycled technology.

I would suggest; listen to the more demanding customers, try to really understand their needs, give them what they want for as far as possible and I'm sure they will keep on coming and drop their savings on your doormat and not run to the webshop for the cheapest, crappy , unreliable and unsatisfactory rubbish that has been flooding the market for years now. Just adding more Flash-ROM is not a new approach , but only a small incremental step in a very slow moving part of industry. I want my new HQ, high featured, reliable, super easy to integrate masterkeyboard - where is it ;-)

Page 4 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
One piece to send to outer space
by chopinetto - 04/14/21 09:31 PM
G# ?
by risusSardonicus - 04/14/21 08:01 PM
Kawai baby grand with silent option
by Jay Gunderson - 04/14/21 06:24 PM
Slur then no slur
by Sebs - 04/14/21 05:08 PM
On-Site "Hitch-Pin" fix???
by Duaner - 04/14/21 03:29 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,290
Posts3,082,519
Members101,196
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5