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In a closed room, a rise in temperature leads to a drop in relative humidity, and vice versa, a drop in temperature leads to increased RH.
With the same moisture weight. As HR is a relative notion (relative to saturation) what count is the condensation point, that allow the vapor to turn in water (or ice) when it meet a cold object. it is surprising that for 68°F (20°c) et 60% RH the temperature where the vapor condensate is not so low : 53.06 (11.7°) the difference in temperature is even lower when in cold temperatures (80% at 41 F (5c°) 100%HR at 38F ) But indeed to have a saturated air (100% HR) in low temperatures, the water weight is way lower, that is why air is so dry in winter. a 60% HR air in cold place, when heated will be 22.5 % HR for instance.
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Hmm, I wasn't actually trying to make a statement or judgement, either way. I was rather trying to raise some pertinent questions.
I'd submit that purely in terms of a temperature and humidity buffer, yes, a reasonably draft-free garage would be better - but only if the garage and surrounding weather are reasonably dry. If there's any hint of damp around (flaky paint, stained wooden beams, water patches, etc.), then ventilation is paramount. That's my sentiment.
I don't know Nova Scotia winters... If there's much precipitation and large temperature fluctuations, one may run into condensation problems, as previous posters have indicated.
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
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Won't months of freezing temperatures harm it if it isn't dry and sealed? NO.
Keith Akins, RPT
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USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Pianos left in unheated buildings through the winter in Maine are actually in much better shape than those in heated houses, even houses with fancy humidification systems. The pianos at summer camps that are stored in unheated buildings are in marvelous shape.
Just keep the mice and red squirrels out of it. The temperature won't hurt a thing. This is absolutely correct. Ignore the mystical lore. Mice are an inconvenience. Squirrels are seriously destructive. When you bring the piano in, just leave it covered and allow it to warm up slowly if you it will experience a large temperature change.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Mice can be seriously destructive, too.
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Mice can be seriously destructive, too. True, but not generally on the order of magnitude of squirrels.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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Personal experience directs me to tell you... NO!!!
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When I think that you guys where able to send rockets on Mars ! was not the same guys, probably !
Sometime I forget that the piano tuner is an ex shoe shiner that learned to play harmonica , hence to tune pianos !
Put your piano OUT of the house, it will be even
better ! (and stop asking dumb questions !)
Out I am also !
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Thanks for your responses folks. It's now in the garage - a 1904 Williams, Canadian made and famous for resilience in extreme climates. I'll have to play it by ear (hah! Joke!).
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Mice can be seriously destructive, too. True, but not generally on the order of magnitude of squirrels. Well,…… sure about that? I worked on this instrument for almost twenty years, slowly upgrading when the fellow had funds. This fellow was gone for one month. The damper in the fireplace was left open and there was a rodent nest on the roof of this building unknown to the superintendent. When the fellow returned he contacted me and I went to inspect. This is what I found…….. I only remained in this place long enough to take some photos for insurance. I cautioned the residents to not remain inside the suite because of possible airborne spores of the hanta virus. The Health Dept. of the municipality was contacted and they shut the whole building down until clean-up. This was a serious infection for a 30 suite building…… left click on this link and that will take you to the photos. Then left click once on the first photo, top left and this will open the album up….Picasa 3…you know…. http://picasaweb.google.com/silverwoodpianos/HeintzmanCo590001919#
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"Mice are an inconvenience. Squirrels are seriously destructive."
"Mice can be seriously destructive, too."
"True, but not generally on the order of magnitude of squirrels."
And squirrels and mice are the plat du jour for snakes and owls. I have never heard of snakes harming a piano in a garage (it may be another story on the concert stage), but Barn Owls, Tyto alba, (which are known to roost in garages) are another story. One sure ID sign of raptor roosts on cliffs (and even sidewalks under high-rises) is a substance called 'whitewash.' This is a known hazard.
Woodpeckers have been overlooked in this discussion so far. While they do not nest in pianos, they do drill holes in great numbers in certain trees, into which they pound acorns for winter storage. They even check the holes in these 'granary trees,' and when the wood shrinks and the acorns become loose in their holes, they pound new, tighter holes and transfer them there. The result visually probably resembles those Roccoco horrors, without the gilt. Though they may not compromise the structural integrity of the case (after all, some oak trees live for hundreds of years in this condition), the acorns can undoubtedly introduce rattles at dynamic levels of ff and above, and possibly as low as mf. Additionally, the stored nuts attract squirrels.
Clef
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Thanks for your responses folks. It's now in the garage - a 1904 Williams, Canadian made and famous for resilience in extreme climates. I'll have to play it by ear (hah! Joke!). So, this is a working 106 year old piano that is going to winter in an unheated garage for the first time in its life? Because of your piano's age, I'm assuming that they used hide glue to glue the action parts, etc. Hide glue tends to become more brittle over time. I am very curious to hear how it holds up. I can always learn. Please post here again on this next year and give us an update after it's been back in the house for a while. Thanks, -Joe
Last edited by daniokeeper; 07/31/10 11:52 AM.
Joe Gumbosky Piano Tuning & Repair www.morethanpianos.com (semi-retired) "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
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No , no, it is very good from time to time to put every piano in little extreme conditions, it make them more resistive ...
In the same kind of idea I have seen a 6 years old Steinway mod A in a place under glass windows, surrounded by tropical wild plants , just under the sun at the6th floor of a rich house in Paris.
Really good looking , for instance for magazines on indoor decoration it is excellent.
(the piano inside looked and played as if it was yet 20 years old !)
Also near the ocean, a large grand by Seiler. humidity is so high that all metal parts where rusty and the tone was awful (12 years old)
if they dont break you can do whatever you want after that, they will last forever (you even can tune them in EBVT3 !)
** !!
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Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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"Mice are an inconvenience. Squirrels are seriously destructive."
"Mice can be seriously destructive, too."
"True, but not generally on the order of magnitude of squirrels."
And squirrels and mice are the plat du jour for snakes and owls. I have never heard of snakes harming a piano in a garage (it may be another story on the concert stage), but Barn Owls, Tyto alba, (which are known to roost in garages) are another story. One sure ID sign of raptor roosts on cliffs (and even sidewalks under high-rises) is a substance called 'whitewash.' This is a known hazard.
Woodpeckers have been overlooked in this discussion so far. While they do not nest in pianos, they do drill holes in great numbers in certain trees, into which they pound acorns for winter storage. They even check the holes in these 'granary trees,' and when the wood shrinks and the acorns become loose in their holes, they pound new, tighter holes and transfer them there. The result visually probably resembles those Roccoco horrors, without the gilt. Though they may not compromise the structural integrity of the case (after all, some oak trees live for hundreds of years in this condition), the acorns can undoubtedly introduce rattles at dynamic levels of ff and above, and possibly as low as mf. Additionally, the stored nuts attract squirrels.
Only Acorn Woodpeckers do this, local to California. One of the more interesting species. They live in family clans, maintaining these granary trees for their community.
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You know I was watching a woodpecker the other day and wondered: if I was a woodpecker and suffered from re-occurring migraines would I go hungry a lot......???? ok forget it......
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Actually, a lot of research has been done on how woodpeckers stand the pounding on their brains.
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You can see how the head and neck are designed by nature to make all of the forward locomotion/weight collect to the end of the beak...fascinating actually.
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So, I need to watch out for woodpeckers as well as squirrels? There are bears in our area as well!
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Against the bears you may need to [censored] largely on and around the piano.
That technique protect the pianos against other tuners, too.
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Actually, the bear would be sufficient to keep me away from it.
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