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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1483439
07/28/10 07:57 PM
07/28/10 07:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,156
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
Do you know how many (ballpark) were manufactured? What was the MSRP (USD)?


I'm afraid the DP1 was developed a little before I arrived at Kawai, so I'm not terribly familiar with that aspect of the instrument. I'll try to find out and let you know.

It's interesting to hear you talking about touch controls for DPs. I'm sure such functionality will gradually become more mainstream in the years ahead, however there is still something to be said for the tactile control of a button, knob, or fader - especially on real-time devices such as musical instruments. An interface that physically moves simply feels more reassuring than tapping on a piece of glass.

But to return to one of your previous points, I do not believe the AvantGrand and DP1 would necessarily appeal to the same consume.

While undoubtedly similar in terms of appearance, the AvantGrand is marketed very much as a traditional instrument - there is a slide-out control panel (inspired by Kawai AnytimeX perhaps?), yet it's extremely minimalist to allow pianists to concentrate on their playing.

The DP1 panel was the complete opposite - its software-based tone generator allowed considerable control over the sound. However as terrific as such functionality was for tweakers, it was perhaps too distracting for classically-minded pianists who simply wished to sit down and play.

I believe this is one reason why the AvantGrand works so well - it manages to combine cutting-edge technology within a package that can be easily marketed to traditional pianists. The DP1 offered similar - if not more advanced - cutting-edge technology, yet was simply too modern in its presentation for the kind of consumer that could afford it.

Originally Posted by dester
Get well soon James!


Thanks. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1483554
07/29/10 12:05 AM
07/29/10 12:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
It's interesting to hear you talking about touch controls for DPs. I'm sure such functionality will gradually become more mainstream in the years ahead, however there is still something to be said for the tactile control of a button, knob, or fader - especially on real-time devices such as musical instruments. An interface that physically moves simply feels more reassuring than tapping on a piece of glass.

When it comes to actually playing an instrument, yes, I completely agree with you. There's nothing worse than insufficient tactile feedback in a musical instrument. For advanced as it was, I really hate the Theremin for getting people to think that waving their hands around in space was some kind of leap forward in musical interfaces. It persists to this day among people who don't play but are avid followers / researchers - a real shame.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
While undoubtedly similar in terms of appearance, the AvantGrand is marketed very much as a traditional instrument - there is a slide-out control panel (inspired by Kawai AnytimeX perhaps?), yet it's extremely minimalist to allow pianists to concentrate on their playing.

Some would say dumbed-down.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
The DP1 panel was the complete opposite - its software-based tone generator allowed considerable control over the sound. However as terrific as such functionality was for tweakers, it was perhaps too distracting for classically-minded pianists who simply wished to sit down and play.

I believe this is one reason why the AvantGrand works so well - it manages to combine cutting-edge technology within a package that can be easily marketed to traditional pianists. The DP1 offered similar - if not more advanced - cutting-edge technology, yet was simply too modern in its presentation for the kind of consumer that could afford it.

Yeah, but Yamaha makes a ton of stuff that looks like the inside of a space capsule.

Exhibit A:
[Linked Image]

Exhibit B:
[Linked Image]

I love buttons and screens and other electronic doodads festooning control panels, and I also like the look of traditional pianos, but not together - these things look grotesque monstrosities to me. And, unlike the KAWAI DP1, those buttons and stuff don't have the decency to disappear when you want them to. And Yamaha only markets these Apollo Moon Lander class DPs through traditional piano outlets. So I guess I don't see your point and respectfully disagree.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1483694
07/29/10 09:59 AM
07/29/10 09:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,828
San Jose, CA
Jeff Clef Offline
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Thought control (or control by intention) is the real frontier, not disappearing touch-screen control panels on which we can still make the wrong entry.

In my very first computer class, the instructor told us, "Computers never do what you want them to--- they do what you tell them to."

Well. It's time to put a stop to that. Though, the human mind, being what it is, some of us may still have a problem.


Clef

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1483753
07/29/10 11:20 AM
07/29/10 11:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 318
Reading, UK
V
Vectistim Offline
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Reading, UK
Off-topic

Originally Posted by dewster
When it comes to actually playing an instrument, yes, I completely agree with you. There's nothing worse than insufficient tactile feedback in a musical instrument. For advanced as it was, I really hate the Theremin for getting people to think that waving their hands around in space was some kind of leap forward in musical interfaces. It persists to this day among people who don't play but are avid followers / researchers - a real shame.


The Theremin and an orchestra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0oo6o5d1CY (start 7'10" in)
continues into first couple of minutes of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7-ikoXl5gc

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1483773
07/29/10 11:48 AM
07/29/10 11:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
hpeterh Offline
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Germany
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by hpeterh
I think the problem is the price tag. For that price you can buy two Kawai silent pianos or one Kawai Baby Grand.

Here's another link: http://www.kawai.de/dp1_en.htm

Doing a quick search, the only pricing I can find on the web for the DP1 lists it as $8,000-$10,000 USD. I believe that's less than half the price of the AvantGrand N3, which I would think would be pretty much the same target audience.


I found it only for much more than 10000 Euro.
e.g. 12500,-
http://www.music-filibe.com/webshop/product_info.php/info/p5247_KAWAI-DP1-Digital-Grand-Piano.html

I also like the display, it looks impressive, but it doesnt make sound or touch.
The display is without doubt one of the most expensive components and apart from good looking in these seldom moments where you need it, its main advantage is that you can switch it off and you dont see it and it doesnt disturb. If I had to pay it I would think twice. I think that is a misconception.

From functionality it is basically an MP8II keyboard, with an added computer and sound library and powerful amplifier and speakers in a shiny case. I think its much too expensive for that. When it is out of support, then upgrading and software-maintenance is impossible.

Would prefer a Grandtouch and add the computer myself and upgrade it as I want for much less money and get a real keyboard action.

Peter

Last edited by hpeterh; 07/29/10 11:49 AM.

1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: hpeterh] #1483789
07/29/10 12:18 PM
07/29/10 12:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,437
Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
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Doing a quick search, the only pricing I can find on the web for the DP1 lists it as $8,000-$10,000 USD. I believe that's less than half the price of the AvantGrand N3, which I would think would be pretty much the same target audience.

The typical street price for the N3 is around $15,000 (and over here, €14,875).

An A2 can be had for around $9,000.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Dave Horne] #1483822
07/29/10 12:56 PM
07/29/10 12:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
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theJourney Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne

An A2 can be had for around $9,000.

What's an A2? It sounds like a Dutch highway.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: theJourney] #1483850
07/29/10 01:22 PM
07/29/10 01:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
hpeterh Offline
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Germany
An A2 is a Car:
[Linked Image]
They design also ugly pianos:
http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/audi.html
[Linked Image]

BTW, I didnt like the design of the DP1 cabinet too much.
Those two frontlegs remind me to a heavy duty molding press, not to a piano ;-).
Probably that is meant to be modern or futuristic design, but I cannot stand it.

;-)

Peter



1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: hpeterh] #1483859
07/29/10 01:30 PM
07/29/10 01:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Northern NJ
Originally Posted by hpeterh

A quibble, but that includes 20% tax. Is that used, remainder stock, or what? I wonder what it was selling for new via Kawai dealers during the time of manufacture?

Originally Posted by hpeterh
I also like the display, it looks impressive, but it doesnt make sound or touch.
The display is without doubt one of the most expensive components and apart from good looking in these seldom moments where you need it, its main advantage is that you can switch it off and you dont see it and it doesnt disturb. If I had to pay it I would think twice. I think that is a misconception.

They make fairly inexpensive chips that handle capacitive switch, knob, and slider interfaces, I don't think it has to add much in the way of cost nowadays. Removing mechanicals usually increases reliability and reduces manufacturing costs. And there's no reason you couldn't include some tactile stuff somehow, such as indentations, bumps, grooves, etc. where the controls are to guide your finger - of course it wouldn't disappear so well, but I'd probably prefer the guides over a flat surface. A tapping solenoid was used to give tactile feedback to the membrane keyboard in the Rhodes Chroma synth.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1485387
07/31/10 05:59 PM
07/31/10 05:59 PM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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It seems there is a fair number here who now own the Roland RD700-GXF (or, equivalently, the RD-700GX with the K-RD700GX1 expansion board).

Could I pester one of you fine people into doing a v1.8 DPBSD MP3 of it? This would be a retest to check various things that were added since v1.4 of the MIDI test file.

Reportedly there are ways of turning on all the effects during MIDI playback except unfortunately for pedal noises. I believe Lawrence is quite the expert at this so perhaps you could consult with him before attempting the test to see what is required.

Lawrence, if you could post your RD-700GXF MIDI setup secrets I would be most grateful!

TIA!

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1485433
07/31/10 07:25 PM
07/31/10 07:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,156
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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How about re-running the DPBSD test for other instruments, or are you only interested in Roland?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1485465
07/31/10 08:06 PM
07/31/10 08:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
How about re-running the DPBSD test for other instruments, or are you only interested in Roland?

Oh no, not just Roland, I welcome any and all MP3 files updated with the latest test suite. In fact I just lately put a "Begging Section" on the main DPBSD post with the following text:

And if anyone wants to redo any of the older DPBSD MP3 files with the very latest MIDI file (v1.8) that would be cool too. I would definitely update the reviews based on the newer files.

But I'm particularly interested in the SN instruments at this point, hence my "on bended knee" RD-700GXF post.

I'm counting on someone to come through - it's tough out there for a DP reviewer!

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1485470
07/31/10 08:08 PM
07/31/10 08:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,156
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Okay, I see. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1485803
08/01/10 10:56 AM
08/01/10 10:56 AM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dewster
And if anyone wants to redo any of the older DPBSD MP3 files with the very latest MIDI file (v1.8) that would be cool too. I would definitely update the reviews based on the newer files.

At the risk of having everyone's eyes glaze over from boredom, I should qualify that somewhat.

There were large changes in the test going from v1.4 to v1.6. So I'm super interested in any and all updates to the DPBSD MP3 file repository where the current sample is v1.5, v1.4, or v1.3.

The repository is located here.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1488666
08/05/10 12:23 PM
08/05/10 12:23 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Yamaha CVP-505 Review

[Linked Image]

PW member "mkhor" recently performed the DPBSD test on his Yamaha CVP-505 and generously provided us with the test file. This is a recently released high-end Clavinova class DP that features "Pure CF Sampling" and "4-level Advanced Wave Memory (AWM) Dynamic Stereo Sampling". Running the DPBSD was simplified by the fact that the CVP-505 can simultaneously play back a MIDI file and save a WAV file to a USB thumb drive. mkhor also performed the layer test on the main voice, tested two other piano voices in the CVP-505, and ran some tests with the pedal down sympathetic resonance and key up samples set to min and max. The default voice is "GrandPiano1" which I have completely reviewed below. The other two voices I analyzed to some degree are "GrandPiano2" and "PopGrand". Thanks mkhor for going that extra mile (or 1.609344 km)!

OK, down to brass tacks. There is some kind of pedal down sympathetic resonance, but it is a rather subtle effect, even when turned up to maximum. I made a mash-up file with this set to 0, 5, and 10, it is named yamaha_cvp-505_res_0_5_10.mp3 and can be found at the share point. I can clearly see that something is going on when it is applied - mikhor says it sounds best to him turned to the max and I agree, I think it helps to smooth out the looped decay tails. Not surprisingly it fails the key down sympathetic resonance test - Yamaha put this effect in the next model up, the CVP-509, but left it out of the 505, presumably as an exercise in product tiering. It passes the silent replay and brief damping tests with flying colors.

The CVP-505 responds to partial pedaling, with most of the control in the 25% to 75% pedal down range. Decay times are nice and long, but the loop samples are rather lifeless sounding, with little in the way of multiple string inter-beating - an approach Yamaha seems to be taking lately in many of their DPs.

The velocity layers are nicely blended, and while I can hear the switching of the highest transition it isn't too obnoxious. Regarding this, mkhor comments: "I have heard clearly while playing, like a new sample when going from med to loud". There is little timbre variation with velocity over the first 1/3 or so of the lowest velocities, which isn't too unusual, but could possibly impact very soft playing. This instrument is fairly stretched, with 30 samples covering 88 notes - I could hear the stretch group transitions over the low and mid notes, but not the high end. On this mkhor says: "This sample is nice clean sounding but when playing scales the stretching is audible and timbre changes very obvious. However in a tune, this would mostly be unnoticeable."

I briefly analyzed the "PopGrand" voice and found from the spectral views of the loop and stretch tests that it clearly uses the same sample set as the default "GrandPiano 1". It has a brighter sound than the default voice, and this is the one that mkhor prefers.

I also did some analysis of the "GrandPiano 2" voice, which appears to be an entirely different sample set. The decay times are fairly short, around 1/2 Pianoteq, and it is highly stretched: 8,4(x3),3,3,4(x8),3,3,7,5,12 = 19 stretch groups. I'm pretty sure the entire top octave is a single sample! I could hear almost all stretch group transitions.

The velocity layers of the "GrandPiano 2" voice seem to be better blended, with no visible or audible steps, and there is timbre variation over the entire range of velocities, and not just the top 2/3 as with the main voice.

But the really strange thing about the "GrandPiano 2" voice is the loop samples. It looks like Yamaha uses a very short loop (not sure how short), but then phases it or something to give it a wobble like two strings inter-beating. Something of an educated guess, but that's what it looks and sounds like to me.

As usual, text review and some pics below, MP3s and more analysis pics at the share point. Thanks again mkhor for letting us hear your DP up close and personal!


[Linked Image]
Waveform view of the looping test with vertical zoom applied. Decay times are nice and long.

[Linked Image]
Spectral phase view of the looping test. Attack and loop samples are clearly seen here for the lower notes.

[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of the looping test, note C2. Attack and loop samples are clearly seen, cursor is located at the transition point, looping is fairly audible.

[Linked Image]
Spectral phase view of the stretch test, low notes. 30 samples cover 88 notes.

[Linked Image]
Spectral frequency view of the layer test. Timber variation is smooth over the mid and high velocities, with less variation at the lower velocities.

[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of the layer test, compressed 20:1. Three visible velocity layers, switch @ vel=114 (cursor) is audible.

[Linked Image]
Spectral phase view of the decay portions of the pedal down sympathetic resonance test. On the left the effect is off, on the right it is set to max. Some sort of diffusion is obviously going on; audibly the effect is rather subtle.


------------------
- Yamaha CVP-505 -
------------------
FILES & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.8_yamaha_cvp-505.mp3
- layer_test_v1.1_yamaha_cvp-505.mp3
- Voice is "GrandPiano1" (default).
- Sequenced & recorded directly using CVP-505 & thumbdrive, WAV=>MP3 via dBpoweramp.
- Recorded by "mkhor".
PROS:
- Pedal down sympathetic resonance, though the effect is subtle, even when turned up.
- Passes the pedal down silent replay test.
- Passes the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Decay times are long (on the order of Pianoteq).
- Visible velocity layer switch @ vel=90,114 (Yamaha reports 4 velocity layers).
- Timbre variation is fairly smoothly blended with increasing velocity.
- Key-up damping samples.
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Obviously looped, both visibly and audibly.
- Attack sample lengths are rather short.
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.3,2.0,1.9,1.7,1.6,1.2,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are short and rather nondescript sounding.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 0.65,0.76,0.5,0.47,0.45,0.3,0.2,? seconds.
- Fairly stretched, stretching is visible over the entire range, audible over the lows and mids.
- Stretch distances: 3,3,4(x3),2,4,3(x3),2,3(x3),2(x4),3,1,3,3,4,2,2,3,5,4,3,3 = 30 groups.
- Layer switch @ vel=114 is fairly audible.
- There is little timbre variation with the lower 1/3 velocities.
- No mechanical sounds such as key-up "knock" or pedal up/down "loom of strings".
OTHER:
- Dynamic range 66 dB (vel=1:127).
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1.77 dB, noise floor below -75 dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-08-01

Edits:
2010-08-05 : Added link to mash-up.
2010-08-06 : Added PRO - "Key-up damping samples".
2010-08-06 : Fixed CON - No mechanical sounds such as key-up "knock" or pedal up/down "loom of strings".

Last edited by dewster; 08/06/10 08:30 AM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1488724
08/05/10 01:33 PM
08/05/10 01:33 PM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Yamaha CVP-505 - BONUS!

Some analysis pix of the "GrandPiano 2" voice in the Yamaha CVP-505:

[Linked Image]
Waveform view of the looping test with vertical zoom applied. Decay times are fairly short.

[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of the looping test, note C3. Note strange loop sample, it looks and sounds like some sort of chorus or phase effect is being applied.

[Linked Image]
Spectral frequency view of the layer test. Timber variation is smooth over the entire range of velocities, with no audible layer switching.

[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of the stretch test, high notes. This voice is very stretched, only 19 samples cover 88 notes.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1488884
08/05/10 05:55 PM
08/05/10 05:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Thanks dewster and mkhor!

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1488909
08/05/10 06:38 PM
08/05/10 06:38 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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During our back and forth regarding the CVP-505 review, mkhor pointed out to me the fact that the CVP-505 and the Yamaha CLP-330 have the same stretch groups. I went back to the CLP-330 MP3 and pix and, sure enough, the main piano voices on both instruments apparently share a common source. I looked in my reviews for the characteristic 3,3,4(x3),2,4,... stretch pattern and saw that theP155 is also a perfect match. To my further surprise, the low end of the CP1 also matches this pattern! Let's briefly compare them:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of the note C2. From top to bottom: CVP-505, CLP-330, P155, CP1 (not to same scale).

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Spectral pan view of the stretch test, lower 1/3 of note range. From top to bottom: CVP-505, CLP-330, P155, CP1 (roughly the same scale).

So, if you buy a P155 are you getting the same sound as in a CP1? Sadly, no. For one thing, the CP1 has significantly less stretching over the mid notes. All we know for sure is Yamaha is drawing on the same sample source for all four DPs, but exactly what they are picking, and how they are further manipulating / processing it, is fairly unknown.

Last edited by dewster; 08/05/10 08:35 PM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1488973
08/05/10 08:12 PM
08/05/10 08:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Interesting stuff. wink

Cheers,
James
x

Last edited by Kawai James; 08/05/10 08:56 PM.

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1489000
08/05/10 08:35 PM
08/05/10 08:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Thanks James!

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