Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum How to tune Tempered Octaves ?

Gadzar:

Well, from what I understand, nearly all ETDs "tune a piano to a theoretical averaged iH curve calculated from some few samples." This sort of tuning is satisfactory to most, and is therefore not useless. But I do wonder about the "unison" thing. Apparently Mr.Stopper's ETD is able to produce exacting unisons. But this may be due to its display, not some ability to be super discerning.

The usefulness of knowing what can be done in a simulator but not with a real piano is to gain an understanding of the limits of a person's ability to tune, or possibly the limits of the design and manufacturing of pianos.

Trying to make current tuning theory useless by implying that it is based on the 12th root of two is ridiculous!

So, what I am saying is that theory can help us keep our feet on the earth by comparing where theory agrees with observation and where it does not. Some observations need to be looked at more closely.

It's what many piano tuners do day after day with very good results. Good enough to get paid.

This refutes your statement.

Kees

Certainly is not blasphemy in my book! There is also tuning tempered fourths and fifths to produce an octave. I tune octaves directly as little as possible, now. Then the resulting octave is a great check. As BDB says, if it sounds good, it is good.

Can anyone actually hear the distinct 2:1, 4:2, and 6:3 beatings (so 3 independent modulations) when playing an octave?

Kees

What's the tuning curve of a modern symphony orchestra? Are the octaves stretches at the top and bottom?

Kees

Often when tuning an octave with wound strings I can start below pitch and listen as a partial match becomes pure and then wide as the next becomes pure and then wide and so on. I can hear two modulations at the same time, but I don’t think I have even tried to hear three. The odd one is when I hear the 5ths partial of the lower note matching with what I can only assume to be a sum or difference tone. Worked best to leave this beat a little wide. All this is one of the reasons that I avoid tuning octaves at all. Now I strike the octave and the twelfth at the same time and tune for the best resonance. Seems the best thing to do when the partials are a bit wacky anyway.

The 'non octave' is eventually part of the concept, but for practical reasons octaves, as other intervals, are tuned,(progressive) at last with Cordier and Chas

Once you have a certain ear, you can trace the ininterest of some tunings. (Called ET) It even can get so incoherent that the music is difficult to play (while at the same time some partials have a smooth progression) I cant really say to what it relates exactly, probably to the skeleton of the tuning , it is what is commonly called a strech problem, but I feel it like an harmony problem.

The orchestra seem to follow the Pythagorean justness, but correct it when playing with a fixed pitch instrument.

I do not agree on this. I think this misunderstanding is caused by a desire to fit the supremacy of non-fixed pitch into a theoretically fixed scheme. The Pythagorean tuning would give a M3rd that is some 22 cents wide of just (8 cents wider than the ET M3). I have certainly heard M3rds that wide in orchestras, but they have been more a result of an intonation problem than reaching a desired ideal.

Well, to be honest I dont know, I asked some friends that play in orchestra. I also hear than the orchestra is playing high in the high treble, unless it is tempered by a soloist instrument.

Agreed on the theory sheme, no proof for that, but violins use pure 5ths as a fundation, as long as they dont play with a piano.

I didn't ask for the temperament, but what the octave stretch (if any) would be.

Kees

@isaac: absolutely, as do solo singers But from my experience, when the orchestra is playing a major chord in the mid-range, the desired intonation is close to just (a 5:4 major third and a 3:2 fifth). Slightly higher M3 to give nerve, slightly lower to underline mellow. Still, the 5:4 is somewhat of a center.

Kees,

I take it you don't ask about the tuning itself? It is (as you probably know) traditionally done from the 1st oboe (or in smaller orchestras without oboe, the 1st clarinet), first giving a long, sustained A4, then Bb4 in the same manner. Then the tuning is often checked inside the choirs, with the principal having the final verdict

As for stretch? Certainly. Strings play higher the higher they go, and the woodwinds will try to keep pace. Trombones, double basses, tubas, bassoons, will normally 'rule' their territory by aiming deep.

@Cashley: Yes, your reasoning is perfectly sound.

This question of yours was sadly left somewhat unanswered when the discussion shifted towards other things, although that discussion was relevant too. Well, at least for the most part We get lost in the art sometimes.


On the other hand, when you utilize the 4:2 or 6:3 octave match that inharmonicity more or less demands for the octaves to sound clean, you also sacrifice the pure 2:1 match. In an octave, you can hear it as a slow sway. In double octaves, there is a more intesive sway (remember, two slight deviations from 2:1 add up) in triple and quadruple octaves (given that they are audible) probably even more so.

This is all because we tend to listen in om higher partials on the piano (4:2, 6:3 aso) whileas the 2:1 match is (for the most part) slightly neglected in favor for consistensy along the keyboard.

If the piano is stretched by 6:3's or beyond that width, you could expect a sway, or even a beat, between two octaves at the 4:1 level.

Does this make sense?

Interesting, I didn't know that. Do you know if the amount of stretch is comparable to a typical piano stretch? Or if there are different stretch styles among conductors?

Kees

None of those instruments play with the fine nuance of tonality of a piano. That makes the comparison rather pointless.

Well if the piccolo's play 45 cents sharp, that would not be pointless.

Kees

I do not care for orchestra music much. When I do listen to it, I notice that a few violins play higher notes much higher than other members. Ughhh! And when there is a small ensemble the strings like to play the fifths untempered. Arrrgghhh! It seems that the only insturment that can play in tune is the french horns. Probably because they play the higher partials and can bend the notes easier. The rest cover things up with v i b r a t o.

I do not care for it either for pretty much the same reasons, except perhaps very late Romantic stuff like early Schoenberg.

However that does not prevent me from being curious about the octave stretch in an orchestra.

Kees