Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question

First movement - bar 21 onward. This is a dumb question I suspect....

In bar 21 the right hand is playing triplets and the left hand is playing half note, quarter note, quarter note. In the next bar, does the left hand take over the triplets?

I play the triplets with the right hand only. I imagine most pianists do the same, because changing hands there would be troublesome. Watch some performances on youtube.

You absolutely keep playing the triplets with the RH.

The "crossing-over" of the LH is an important part of what's going on musically.

And really it's easier to play that way too, although you may have to work on it a bit to realize that.

The legato line with the left hand over the right can be tricky for sure, but once you "get it", it physically feels better to play the melody using your left hand. Keep working on it if you're having trouble, you will get it eventually (it isn't so hard as it appears

Thanks for your input on this - I've tried it both ways and can through it decently (given the short time I've been working at it). But switching hands definately interrupts the flow of the triplets.

I am not so sure that the solution is as absolute as some may suggest.

Both the Schnabel edition and the Henle (edited Wallner; fingering by Conrad Hansen) do not recommend the continuing triplets to be played with the right hand; both editions clearly change hands for the triplets.

I suspect that one reason for this is that in certain measures (31-32, 33-34, 35-36, for example) the last note of the measure is repeated as the first note of the next measure. For some - perhaps that is why Beethoven has it written this way - the repeated note is easier to execute in time with a change of hand rather than - at that tempo - repeating the note with the same hand.

I read somewhere, although I don't recall where, that it doesn't really matter whether or not you repeat the last/first note or whether you just keep alternating with the notes in question. I am sure that adherents to original scores would find this heretic.

Regards,

re-Edit: Don't pay too much attention to this post.


You're kidding.

I mean, I know you're not, but I can't believe it.

I gotta see that.

P.S. Have you ever seen anybody play it that way? I sure haven't -- and that covers dozens of players, of all levels.
Nor have I ever heard or seen anyone raise the possibility.

EDIT: I was able to look at the Schnabel, or at least a version of the Schnabel, on Amazon -- and I'm going to stick my neck out. (Not every measure is shown, but more than enough for me to say this.)

Something is wrong.
I do not believe that Schnabel meant it the way it appears.

Here's why.

Take a look, for example, at these places (and there are others like it).
Counting the measures from the start of the theme in question (i.e. where the triplets begin), not from the beginning of the movement:

First note of measure 11
First note of measure 13
First note of measure 15
etc.

Tell me, Bruce: do you think it's even possible that Schnabel intended the "blip" (often HUGE) that would occur in the left hand if you play it that way?
I do not.

I'm saying that something got lost in the translation between Schnabel and this printed version. Schnabel did not mean it that way.

I think the one and only thing that would convince me otherwise would be if such a "blip" occurs in these places in Schnabel's own playing of the piece.

P.S. Not crucial to the discussion, but as a side note: From the measures that do show up on that Amazon page, it seems that the only thing indicating that the notes are to be played as you said is the fingerings. The first few measures of the triplet section don't show up; I'm wondering if maybe up there it says "m.s." and "m.d." or some such?

The placement of the notes on the treble or bass clef doesn't in itself mean anything. The editions indicating all the triplets to be played by the right hand often (if not always) also divide those notes between the clefs.

I know that Schnabel in general indicated lots of fingerings, and so of course we would usually not have any doubt that fingerings in this edition are his. But I'm guessing strongly that in this case, they aren't. And from what I can see, nothing but the fingerings needs to be doubted.

Hi chaps,

LBs sonata 31-2 ... 1st movement

BruceDs comment caught my eye ... the correct hand to play the trills ... while most would settle for a RH continuity to the trills ... allowing the LH to negotiate the cross-hands Theme ... the Henle Edition apparently prefers the RH to handle the treble motif and the LH the bass

And, there’s a quirk at m31-32 to support the Henle approach
"the last note of the measure is repeated as the first note of the next measure" ...

where the RH easily copes with the jab of extra note ... but, it’s a mute point whether dividing the trills between hands keeps the flow of the trills.

IMHO that extra note could well be omitted ... then, the broad single-note outline of the cross-hands motif can be easily managed by the LH

Bruce is right - it's possible to switch hands, if you have good timing.
I've been doing it that way ever since I've played the piece. I toyed with doing some hand-crossing, but rejected it for a few small reasons.
It's not for lack of technic - I have no problem with hand-crossing in Beethoven generally.

I just like the accents it seems to add.

Well, you've heard of one now. I have always played it that way, and exactly so that I can cover the repeated notes in those few measures. (Though I do keep the triplets in the R.H. in measures 38-40.)

What blip? I can play it without any micropauses, and I can keep the melody flowing as if played by a single hand. It's really not that hard, and when done correctly it will not be disruptive to the musical flow.

The the new Cooper edition also has you changing hands for the triplets. I don't cross until those high A notes in mm 37,38,39.

So whose fingerings are they?

Mattardo -- How do you avoid those "blips" at places like where I indicated?

You said "good timing," but I'm saying it's completely utterly impossible (literally) to avoid a blip (which is bad timing) if you do it that way.

With the leaps?? I can't see it.

But in any event....it's interesting to see that there are people who actually do play it that way and always have.

Meanwhile, I'm standing by what I've said, being aware that I may be about to fall off a cliff.

I'm saying it's not possible to play it that way without a significant "blip" in many places -- i.e. breaking the rhythm for those leaps. If someone wants to demonstrate that it is possible, I'm all ears.

I guess this wasn't such a dumb question after all. For the record, I've found it reasonably playable either way and I can see aesthetic reasons for both formats. I agree with Mattardo that switching hands gives you a chance to add a little accent when the left hand takes over. But I also agree with the others who say that it makes more intuitive sense (and maybe is more consistent with precedent in Beethoven, though I'm less sure about this) to keep the triplets in the right hand and cross the left over.

Interesting!

In the name of honesty and fairness.....

There are "blips" in Schnabel's recording.
It does sound like he does exactly that.

I still can't believe it. But looks like it is so.



"Blips" occur at 1:00 and 1:02, among other places. They're quite pronounced in those two places; not so bad at 1:04 but still an evident break.

I can't imagine why he'd do it that way, but obviously he had his reasons (need I say).

There are six or seven editions with fingerings marked at IMSLP. All but one indicate switching the triplets to the left hand at bar 21. Add in the Schnabel edition and the other edition specifically mentioned in this thread, it seems like most editions have the triplets changing to the left hand.

Later on in the piece, when there is only single note(not phrase of 6 or 7 notes) played above the triplets, I think some(but not all) of those editions may indicate crossing over with the left hand to play that note.

I should have mentioned this in my earlier post:

In both the Schabel and Henle editions, following the Allegro at measure 99, the right hand does continue with the triplet figures and the left hand does cross over to play the treble melody.

There must be some reason in both these editions that this particular distinction is so clearly made between the two iterations of this thematic material.

Regards,

It's very clear, given the Preface by Schnabel, that the fingerings in his edition are indeed his own. He states, in fact (in part):

"The fingerings in this edition may here and there appear somewhat strange. In explanation of the more unusual kinds let it be said that the selection was not made exclusively with a view to technical facility, but rather from the desire to secure - at least approximately - the correct musical expression of the passages in question (as the Editor feels they should be interpreted).

[...] The fingerings and pedal indication s are almost without exception by the Editor; the original texts, especially those of earlier works, contain next to none."

It would seem to me, then, in light of this last statement, that there can be no doubt that the fingerings in the Schnabel edition are Schnabel's.

Regards,