Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
138 registered members (ando, Akaitsuki, Anglagard44, akc42, AaronSF, AndyOnThePiano, anamnesis, Animisha, anotherscott, 28 invisible), 1,549 guests, and 621 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: MacMacMac] #1476909 07/19/10 06:24 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,101
L
ll Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,101
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Are you guys suggesting that the study is flawed?
Do you feel that the facts they gathered are trumped by your armchair guesses?


Armchair guesses?

That's like saying art isn't subjective, but purely objective.

Of course there are certain qualities we approve of wholely and comparatively, but you can't assess these types of things purely based on the mathematical assignments by some study.

Answer my previous question and THEN we'll talk about it. Until then: BALONEY.


II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1477032 07/19/10 10:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 559
S
SoundThumb Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 559
I like this study. It is really a good news/bad news story for those of us that are adult beginners. The bad news is that unless you have completed extensive training and practice before age 20 the cards are stacked against you ever reaching the peak of the profession. But I don't think that is really news for most people who take up piano after age 20. The good news, and where I prefer to focus is that the study finds very little correlation between some sort of innate talent and becoming really good at something. Becoming good takes training, practice, and dedication. It keeps the door open for all of us, it remains within our grasp.


[Linked Image]
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: SoundThumb] #1477096 07/19/10 12:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
knotty Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
Why not read Kenny Werner's book and just become a master right away ?

It's really that easy !

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: knotty] #1477169 07/19/10 02:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,907
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,907
I have no illusions about reaching the peak of the profession. I just want to enjoy playing a little piano. After 520 hours of practice, I've reached that goal. Plod, plod, plod...


Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Nicole94707] #1477465 07/19/10 09:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11
D
Donn Xavier Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11
The general rule that we (piano teachers) use is simply this:

It takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a pianist capable of performing in a recital or on stage. That translates to: 1,000 hours/year and that translates to (about) 3 hours/day - - - and that means EVERY DAY!! But if you want to be a good Chopin or Liszt interpreter, it takes even more than that! But - - it's a start!!
Donn Xavier


Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1480759 07/24/10 06:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,887
MacMacMac Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,887
Originally Posted by ll
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Are you guys suggesting that the study is flawed? Do you feel that the facts they gathered are trumped by your armchair guesses?

Armchair guesses?
That's like saying art isn't subjective, but purely objective.
Of course there are certain qualities we approve of wholely and comparatively, but you can't assess these types of things purely based on the mathematical assignments by some study.
Answer my previous question and THEN we'll talk about it. Until then: BALONEY.
I'll take that as "I've not seen the study, I'm not able to evaluate the results, and I'll offer no factual support for my statements." smile

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1480819 07/24/10 08:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 102
J
jcabraham Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 102
Originally Posted by ll
Originally Posted by jcabraham
Originally Posted by ll
Wizard, I was about to post the same exact links earlier!

You know what they say... great minds and all wink

But seriously. It's a load of crock.


You guys understand than in any sample there will be outliers, right? All this proves is that you need more education.


The problem with statistics like this (whoopty doo, trust me, I've done enough classes and studies in that) is that they don't approach the other variables in terms of the arts.

Maybe it is you who needs to be educated.

The issue lies in the term "master" and what that means. A concert pianist is "more of a master" at the piano than, say, a DMA piano teacher? Because of what, their fame? What about comparing rock/roll piano to classical? Do you think 10k hours are necessary in that to become a master?

It's all nonsense. Studies like this make absolutely no sense in this side of the academic or practical world.


You're fixated on the number. The studies have important things to tell anybody who wants to master a skill. You're simply blowing smoke out of your ass (yeah, I'm serious) without actually challenging either the methodology or the results. You trying to find an excuse for mediocrity or something?

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: jcabraham] #1481367 07/25/10 06:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,101
L
ll Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,101
You say that as if it bothers me. Believe in the number all you want. In the end, it's just a number that means absolutely nothing.

Do I believe there is some merit to the study (which, yes, I have seen)? Of course. But it simply doesn't apply in the same fashion you'd wish. Especially when the outliers against it are one-too-many - ie, the hundreds of thousands of kids who are well above "mediocrity" - as well as the sample pool the data is taken from. There are too many variables and subjective reasonings (like the ones I mentioned before, which apparently to you are just smoke out of my ass - welcome to the world of the arts, buddy, where you are sure to fail) to find a true value in this analysis.

10,000 hours of dedicated hours will make you 10,000 hours better. They won't make you a master, and are not the threshold for becoming a master - whatever the heck that term means.


II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1481387 07/25/10 06:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,393
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,393
Technical skill does not make one a 'master.' Nor does 10,000 hours. Why? Because you can have 50,000 hours under your belt and still give a performance that does not communicate.

A real master is able to combine intuition and intellect into one resulting in a communication that transcends technique. Sure, technique is needed and required, but it ain't the holy grail many seem to think it is. smile

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: eweiss] #1481394 07/25/10 06:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,101
L
ll Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,101
Originally Posted by eweiss
Technical skill does not make one a 'master.' Nor does 10,000 hours. Why? Because you can have 50,000 hours under your belt and still give a performance that does not communicate.

A real master is able to combine intuition and intellect into one resulting in a communication that transcends technique. Sure, technique is needed and required, but it ain't the holy grail many seem to think it is. smile


+ a billion


II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1481402 07/25/10 07:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 833
WinsomeAllegretto Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 833
Well, let me tell you. I have been playing piano for 10 years and I have certainly not "mastered" it.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: eweiss] #1481411 07/25/10 07:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,887
MacMacMac Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,887
Originally Posted by eweiss
Technical skill does not make one a 'master.' Nor does 10,000 hours. Why? Because you can have 50,000 hours under your belt and still give a performance that does not communicate.
That's unsupportable.

Do you know ANYONE who has 50,000 hours of practice under his belt? I can't. It would take 8 hours of practice EVERY SINGLE DAY for 17 years!

No days off. No holidays. No slacking off. (Fall below 8 hrs/day and you have to make it up with extra practice on another day.)

I'd guess that only the greatest of dedicated greats could achieve 50,000 hours before the age of 40 or 50.

I dare say that anyone who has practiced that much would be a fine pianist. Or, if he/she couldn't hack it, he'd drop out LONG before the 50,000 hours. Indeed, probably before 10,000 hours.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: MacMacMac] #1481775 07/26/10 11:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,527
M
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,527
Just for the record I'm about to hit the 2500 hour mark and I still suck... smile

Please return to your scheduled program...

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Mark...] #1481802 07/26/10 11:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,623
J
jotur Offline
Gold Level
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Level
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,623
But you suck less than you used to!

(Sorry, that's one of my band's mottoes - "Damn, we're not as bad as we used to be" laugh )

Cathy


Cathy
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Perhaps “more music” is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: MacMacMac] #1481837 07/26/10 12:45 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7
C
ChristopherM Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
C
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Are you guys suggesting that the study is flawed?
Do you feel that the facts they gathered are trumped by your armchair guesses?


Yes.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1481839 07/26/10 12:48 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7
C
ChristopherM Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
C
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by ll

10,000 hours of dedicated hours will make you 10,000 hours better. They won't make you a master, and are not the threshold for becoming a master - whatever the heck that term means.



This^

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ChristopherM] #1481982 07/26/10 05:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 7
E
Eddy Boston Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
E
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 7
The problem is not really with the study, but from the conclusions that come from trying to generalize it, and the use of fuzzy words like "master" and "just about anything."

Has there ever been anyone who can truly claim to have "mastered" piano? In the history of the world? Maybe one of the first inventors of the piano could have claimed to be able to play every piano piece ever written, which at the time may have been just one. (Even still, there were harpsichord pieces, organ pieces, etc.)

No matter how good someone gets, there is always another challenge, another difficulty. The piano field is, relative to a human lifetime, infinite, for all practical purposes. Maybe you master classical piano, well you still need to learn jazz. Or how about ragtime?

On the other hand, I bet most could become a tic-tac-toe master in a matter of hours, if not minutes. You can't say "just about anything" and really mean it.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Eddy Boston] #1482320 07/27/10 07:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 250
LaRate Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 250
Uhmm...

Where did you all read the term "master"?

Ericsson is talking about "expertise" - which I think is a bit different, since it does not have the same absoluteness to it ("mastering" something seems to imply there's nothing left to improve or learn).

The number 10.000 might be a bit arbitrary, however it hints toward the rough dimension of what it takes to become an "expert". Furthermore it suggests that "talent" is a largely undefined concept. Although I do not doubt that some human beings are more inclined to learn specific things faster than others, I believe that behind many of those child prodigies there is a complex system of affection, motivation, opportunity and encouragement - which ultimately results into spending a lot of time doing something.

And I wouldn't even be to hard on the "deliberate practise" requirement. I think someone spending 10.000 hours into something and not dropping out of it, one can assume that a good portion of that time will be spent purposeful. A person so immersed in one activity will educate himself/herself even when not practising: by being surrounded by people with similar interests, by reading stuff, by thinking about music (or whatever it is) in every spare minute etc...

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: LaRate] #1482345 07/27/10 08:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,654
Phlebas Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,654

Quote
Uhmm...

Where did you all read the term "master"?


From the title of this thread: "The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano."

EddyBoston said, "The problem is not really with the study, but from the conclusions that come from trying to generalize it, and the use of fuzzy words like "master" and "just about anything."

I suppose he's including the OP as someone who drew conclusions from generalizing, and used fuzzy words like "master."

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Inlanding] #1482347 07/27/10 08:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,935
I
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,935
Originally Posted by Inlanding
Originally Posted by jcabraham
Originally Posted by Inlanding
I don't believe a word of it. There are far too many variables when it comes to playing the piano that can't be summed up in a simple number.

Mastery is another loaded term. Just ask any of the 'masters' how many hours it took them - many will say mastery is as elusive as it was on day-one. wink

Glen


This is not some froot-loopy made up self-help. The original research was done by Anders Ericsson, and published in peer-reviewed journals. Take a look at the papers and then decide.


Thanks for forwarding a peer-reviewed article, referencing all sorts of other studies and articles ascribing what experts in one field say about what the experts in other fields are doing and how they might have arrived there. I very much appreciate reading and digesting articles like that. That well written article makes the OP's claim anything but a simple truth.

However, there isn't much in there addressing the mastery of piano musicianship specifically (skill, etc, not just knowledge), so the mystery of it still hangs out there - it addresses expertise and generalizing to other endeavors.

To quote the article:
The same acquired representations appear to be essential for experts' ability to monitor and evaluate their own performance (Ericsson, 1996; Glaser, 1996) so they can keep improving their own performance by designing their own training and assimilating new knowledge.

Also, I never claimed or intimated gaining expertise is some fruit-loopy made up self-help concept. I assert mastery (a different term) is much more complicated (perhaps more of a process) when it comes to music performance and that 10,000 hours as a means to an end is an oversimplification, that's all.


My response never received a reply, so any dialog wasn't considered important.

It seems people's joy to play the piano is more timeless than anything else. When it comes to passions like this, quantification sometimes dilutes it.

Glen


[Linked Image]
A Bit of YouTube
PTG Associate Member
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  BB Player 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
Christmas Ornaments Music Theme
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Steinway grands and Yamaha uprights
by WeakLeftHand - 12/09/19 03:32 PM
Garritan CFX dropouts when used as VST
by stamkorg - 12/09/19 12:57 PM
Trip to choose my Steingraeber
by The Hound - 12/09/19 10:43 AM
Early-40's Knabe 5'3" - repair or replace?
by Varrin Swearingen - 12/09/19 09:11 AM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics195,582
Posts2,900,035
Members95,195
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3