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Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: Samuel1993] #1477934 07/20/10 02:13 PM
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Victor25 Offline
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I like to think that Beethoven is gonna kick everybody's ass in the afterlife who ever raped his music.


Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)
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Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: Victor25] #1477939 07/20/10 02:21 PM
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Stanza Offline
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Another consideration is that 16th note anticipation in the melody that is first seen at the end of measure 5. Getting it just right can be tricky.

Last edited by Stanza; 07/20/10 02:22 PM.

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Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: Stanza] #1477951 07/20/10 02:44 PM
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PaintedPostDave Offline OP
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The following quotes are taken from the two posts that bothered me initially.

"this is way beyond you at the moment, but that you can work toward it by playing wonderful pieces at your level or just within reach" (Morodiene)

and

"To play musically, one needs more background than what it seems you have" (Lililady)

Then came shots from Ronald, Izaldu, Victor25, Phlebas and ... Gee, I lost track. I'm over it.

Contrary to an earlier comment, when I get the first nine measures worked out I will post it - along with a 12 bar blues trailer.

BTW, I spoke to Beethoven just before I made the initial post and he told me to go for it - but call it something else like "Moonshine".


Dave Koenig
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Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: PaintedPostDave] #1477962 07/20/10 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave

"this is way beyond you at the moment, but that you can work toward it by playing wonderful pieces at your level or just within reach" (Morodiene)

Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave

"To play musically, one needs more background than what it seems you have" (Lililady)


In both posts, they are saying that you need more experience playing to get the dynamics of the piece correct, which is more important in Moonlight Sonata than merely playing the notes.
Not that you can't to play it, it will just be harder for you get the dynamics correct.

Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave

BTW, I spoke to Beethoven just before I made the initial post and he told me to go for it - but call it something else like "Moonshine".


Mondschein is the word you are looking for, the German word for 'Moonlight' (also what the piece is called the book I have)


Repertoire:
Complete:
Beethoven- Op 27/2 'Moonlight' Mvt.1
Beethoven - Op 13 'Pathetique' Mvt.2
Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: Victor25] #1478037 07/20/10 05:28 PM
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stores Offline
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Originally Posted by Victor25
I like to think that Beethoven is gonna kick everybody's ass in the afterlife who ever raped his music.


LMAO. I'm buying a ticket to that event. Front row!



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: stores] #1478156 07/20/10 09:02 PM
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I think others here can give better advice about the technical aspects of Moonlight (I actually haven't played this Beethoven sonata).

But I have to agree with a lot of the posts before me. Moonlight is more about musicality and interpretation than it is about just hitting the notes. If the latter is hard, one might never reach the former (before someone calls me on this, not meant to be condescending).

And of course, there is the "cliché" of beginners playing the popular movement of the Moonlight sonata and not the rest, which bothers many musicians (though not me, as long as the person can play that movement well).

Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: Quickster94] #1478184 07/20/10 09:56 PM
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I actually really enjoy the 3rd movement of it quite a bit, perhaps even more so than the first. Of course, it's harder to play then the first movement is.


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Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: PaintedPostDave] #1478258 07/21/10 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave
The following quotes are taken from the two posts that bothered me initially.

"this is way beyond you at the moment, but that you can work toward it by playing wonderful pieces at your level or just within reach" (Morodiene)

and

"To play musically, one needs more background than what it seems you have" (Lililady)

Then came shots from Ronald, Izaldu, Victor25, Phlebas and ... Gee, I lost track. I'm over it.

Contrary to an earlier comment, when I get the first nine measures worked out I will post it - along with a 12 bar blues trailer.

BTW, I spoke to Beethoven just before I made the initial post and he told me to go for it - but call it something else like "Moonshine".


My name is King Condescend, king of kings, master of all potential moments of condescension. Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair, for I hereby announce that Lililady and Morodiene's comments were not of thy condescension.



Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: PaintedPostDave] #1478308 07/21/10 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave


Contrary to an earlier comment, when I get the first nine measures worked out I will post it - along with a 12 bar blues trailer.



Who wants to hear 9 measures? Post the whole thing when you learn it.

Re: The Rookie is Disgusted [Re: Phlebas] #1478699 07/21/10 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Phlebas
Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave


Contrary to an earlier comment, when I get the first nine measures worked out I will post it - along with a 12 bar blues trailer.



Who wants to hear 9 measures? Post the whole thing when you learn it.


laugh








Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: PaintedPostDave] #1478866 07/22/10 12:38 AM
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Oh, My God! laugh This is like a bar fight!!! grin Let me join the fray! *fists up*

Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
That will work fine until the third stream winds up in the middle.. then you'll have your friend in your lap! laugh

What's wrong with that??? Sounds like fun, and, if you're that close, I'm sure you can work out the finger issues! Beethoven meets Heart and Soul! laugh (BTW, I know you're being funny, Jeffrey, and it made me laugh!)

Originally Posted by blueston
I think I know what you are asking. You just play it with the right hand too. You will probably use your 5th finger the most, maybe the 4th finger to play those "Melody" notes, although I would have to go home and watch what I do again.

So you will be playing 2 notes at a time, usually the thumb will play the first note in the "Triplet" (really Arpeggio) Chord while at the same time the 5th finger may play the Melody.

If you are a beginner I would just concentrate on that for now. It can be hard to voice this properly until you have more experience. But eventually you want to hold down those top Melody notes with the 5th finger, while you play the other couple of notes in the "Triplet" (Arpeggio), actually you may play the Arpeggio twice while holding down those melody notes. This may take some effort to get your fingers to be independant like this.

Finally you want to play those top notes louder than the underlying arpeggio. This can take some effort too to get one finger on the same hand to play louder than the other fingers. Ah, but that's what makes all this so fun.


^^^This^^^ is one of the most perceptive, sensitive, and kindest posts I have ever read in my short time at Piano World. My hat is off to you blueston. I would want you by my side in any bar fight!

Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave
The following quotes are taken from the two posts that bothered me initially.

"this is way beyond you at the moment, but that you can work toward it by playing wonderful pieces at your level or just within reach" (Morodiene)

and

"To play musically, one needs more background than what it seems you have" (Lililady)

Then came shots from Ronald, Izaldu, Victor25, Phlebas and ... Gee, I lost track. I'm over it.

Contrary to an earlier comment, when I get the first nine measures worked out I will post it - along with a 12 bar blues trailer.

BTW, I spoke to Beethoven just before I made the initial post and he told me to go for it - but call it something else like "Moonshine".


Condescending? Phrased so, yes, I thought so. Because we haven't heard him play! WTH? With all due respect to Lilylady (who I like, though I've never met) and Morodiene (who I've never met, but could, since we live in the same neighborhood), you two are making assumptions that, to a sweet-hearted experienced piano player might sound a little snotty, or, at least, snooty...Sometimes, it takes a jump start...then the guy says, "I GET IT!" and rips into it like he's been playing it his whole life. 'Specially someone who plays the blues, and 'specially someone who is "enamored" with the Sonatas...this is an easy one to read, and someone who is musical can pick it up in a short while! Which first movement would you rather start with? 49-2 or Moonlight?


Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Victor25
I like to think that Beethoven is gonna kick everybody's ass in the afterlife who ever raped his music.


LMAO. I'm buying a ticket to that event. Front row!


Yeah, and Beethoven's gonna kick yer shins, stores! And then when you come out of your seat to cover them, he's gonna kick yer ass, too! Ha-ha!!!


Originally Posted by Emphursis1
[...] it will just be harder for you get the dynamics correct. [...]


How do you know?


Originally Posted by phlebas
Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave


Contrary to an earlier comment, when I get the first nine measures worked out I will post it - along with a 12 bar blues trailer.



Who wants to hear 9 measures? Post the whole thing when you learn it.


I want to hear 9 measures! FOR SURE! And, I want to hear the trailer, too! GO FOR IT, Mr. Painter! I, for one, am eagerly waiting to hear "Moonshine!" laugh

--Andy

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 07/22/10 12:59 AM. Reason: added quote and response

I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: Cinnamonbear] #1478931 07/22/10 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear


Originally Posted by Emphursis1
[...] it will just be harder for you get the dynamics correct. [...]


How do you know?


Because, with even less musical experience than the OP started learning this Movement and found the dynamics much harder to get right than merely the notes.

I am not saying he shouldn't learn it, to the contrary, I have encouraged him.
In that quote, I was agreeing with, and telling the OP, what Lilylady and Morodiene appeared to mean with their comments that he highlighted.


Repertoire:
Complete:
Beethoven- Op 27/2 'Moonlight' Mvt.1
Beethoven - Op 13 'Pathetique' Mvt.2
Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: Emphursis1] #1478943 07/22/10 06:12 AM
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Alot of us more experienced players forget the days when we stumbled upon new music that was beyond our grasp. The pure joy of discovery, emotional feelings, and the sense of wanting to do it ourselves was usually enough to push us to tackle the piece. We may have been able to play it haphazardly a bit and ended up hitting some technical and musical brick walls - but we got the feeling of what it was like to play the piece: we touched that artistic plane briefly and the feeling was wonderful.

I remember when I would stumble upon pieces such as the Iberia Suite, or the Waldstein, or La Campanella from hearing recordings, and I would rush to my mom, begging her to take me to a music store, any music store, to find the score. Upon meeting the score, I would rush to the piano and start plowing through the piece, no matter how difficult. The results would usually be bad, but still enjoyable. My teacher would say "Oh, Matt - you shouldn't be trying this." But then, after seeing my pained expression, the soul-crushing words she uttered seemed a bit harsh, and she would dedicate 15 minutes of my lesson to tackling whatever I wanted - regardless of it's musical and technical difficulty.

I had to make compromises, but the musical feeling of accomplishment was still there, and it pushed me to do better with my regular studies so that I could someday play those pieces much better.

I think it's great to tackle pieces that are beyond us - these types of pieces are inspiring, and push us to excel. They teach us that the boring piece we are now working on will lead to better things, if we have patience and perserverance. We may only be able to play certain passages of our chosen dream, but sometimes that is enough to make us happy and give us that supreme sense of accomplisment to keep us going.

I see people learn Mary Had A Little Lamb for the first time sometimes - and they are usually thrilled, empowered and astonished at what they have done. I watched a woman pick out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star the other day - she had horrible voicing, her rhythm was off, she used all the wrong fingers - but she felt like a million dollars, and watching the look of joy on her face was very rewarding.

Let's not forget what it was like for all of us when we started on our road - sometimes well-meant help can be misconstrued and smash someone else's dreams. I would hate to be told that I scared someone away from the piano, or classical music. Respect for the composer, and proper method will come in time - it usually does.




Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: Mattardo] #1479002 07/22/10 07:55 AM
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Everybody should learn to play (however grotesquely) the jolly old Moonlight sonata ... here we have a case of a retired engineer, boasting a Yamaha Grand ... who naturally (at his venerable age) gets a bit crotchety when folk talk down to him ...

The chappie is likely to battle with his sight-reading ( the jazz interest gives a clue) ... but has been seduced by the first two measures of the Moonlight in C# minor... that opening RH repetition of 8 identical triplets grabs us all ... too easy ... a case of "look Ma, no hands"... but limping along to the limit of our memory we bump into a real corker at m6 and m7 ... jamming in the tiniest G# to close the measures.

But crikey!! ... the rest is plain sailing ... the LH maintains broad octave chords allowing
the sight-reading to focus on the RH role.

Forgive my presumptuous opinion ... many moons ago the Moonlight was my baptism of fire.

Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: btb] #1479005 07/22/10 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by btb
Everybody should learn to play (however grotesquely) the jolly old Moonlight sonata ... here we have a case of a retired engineer, boasting a Yamaha Grand ... who naturally (at his venerable age) gets a bit crotchety when folk talk down to him ...

The chappie is likely to battle with his sight-reading ( the jazz interest gives a clue) ... but has been seduced by the first two measures of the Moonlight in C# minor... that opening RH repetition of 8 identical triplets grabs us all ... too easy ... a case of "look Ma, no hands"... but limping along to the limit of our memory we bump into a real corker at m6 and m7 ... jamming in the tiniest G# to close the measures.

But crikey!! ... the rest is plain sailing ... the LH maintains broad octave chords allowing
the sight-reading to focus on the RH role.

Forgive my presumptuous opinion ... many moons ago the Moonlight was my baptism of fire.


Yes, it's really not that difficult. Many people like to say such things as "this piece may appear to be easy, but it really requires a formidable technique and musical understanding to really bring out the etc, etc, it's very deceptive, etc, etc". This may be true, and may not be true - but the Moonlight Sonata 1st movement is one of the first pieces that students usually experience of Beethoven's - apart from Fur Elise, which requires much more technical skill, honestly.

Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: Mattardo] #1479033 07/22/10 08:52 AM
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The OP posted a request for help and advice, which was given. I am sorry I posted my opinion. I won't let it happen again.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: Mattardo] #1479091 07/22/10 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mattardo
Alot of us more experienced players forget the days when we stumbled upon new music that was beyond our grasp. The pure joy of discovery, emotional feelings, and the sense of wanting to do it ourselves was usually enough to push us to tackle the piece. We may have been able to play it haphazardly a bit and ended up hitting some technical and musical brick walls - but we got the feeling of what it was like to play the piece: we touched that artistic plane briefly and the feeling was wonderful.

I remember when I would stumble upon pieces such as the Iberia Suite, or the Waldstein, or La Campanella from hearing recordings, and I would rush to my mom, begging her to take me to a music store, any music store, to find the score. Upon meeting the score, I would rush to the piano and start plowing through the piece, no matter how difficult. The results would usually be bad, but still enjoyable. My teacher would say "Oh, Matt - you shouldn't be trying this." But then, after seeing my pained expression, the soul-crushing words she uttered seemed a bit harsh, and she would dedicate 15 minutes of my lesson to tackling whatever I wanted - regardless of it's musical and technical difficulty.

I had to make compromises, but the musical feeling of accomplishment was still there, and it pushed me to do better with my regular studies so that I could someday play those pieces much better.

I think it's great to tackle pieces that are beyond us - these types of pieces are inspiring, and push us to excel. They teach us that the boring piece we are now working on will lead to better things, if we have patience and perserverance. We may only be able to play certain passages of our chosen dream, but sometimes that is enough to make us happy and give us that supreme sense of accomplisment to keep us going.

I see people learn Mary Had A Little Lamb for the first time sometimes - and they are usually thrilled, empowered and astonished at what they have done. I watched a woman pick out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star the other day - she had horrible voicing, her rhythm was off, she used all the wrong fingers - but she felt like a million dollars, and watching the look of joy on her face was very rewarding.

Let's not forget what it was like for all of us when we started on our road - sometimes well-meant help can be misconstrued and smash someone else's dreams. I would hate to be told that I scared someone away from the piano, or classical music. Respect for the composer, and proper method will come in time - it usually does.





Nice story, Mattardo! And good, good points! Thanks for sharing this one! laugh


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: Morodiene] #1479204 07/22/10 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
The OP posted a request for help and advice, which was given. I am sorry I posted my opinion. I won't let it happen again.


Keep posting your opinion. You weren't wrong, and your posts always make a lot of sense.

The OP was asking very basic questions that if he was ready to play the piece, he would be able to figure out. Also, he can't be bothered to work out the notes in the original key, so he transposes it to A minor, which he said "although it doesn't sound as good". How seriously are we supposed to take it? The best advice is: it's too hard for him.

That said, there's no law against playing something too hard for you, and you might learn something from the process.

Re: A Rookie Tries the Moonlight Sonata [Re: Phlebas] #1479223 07/22/10 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear


^^^This^^^ is one of the most perceptive, sensitive, and kindest posts I have ever read in my short time at Piano World. My hat is off to you blueston. I would want you by my side in any bar fight!



Holy Cow! This is the kindest response I have got to any of my posts. Thank you! But just so you know, I chimed in well before the "bar fight" started smile

Also- very good posts Matardo and Btb. thumb

As for Morodiene and Lil'lady, I know they did not intentionally mean any harm. When you get to a certain level, it all becomes about interpretation, and strictly speaking what they say is true, the interpretation part of this piece is deceptively harder than you would think. The piece sounds easier than it is. The notes are relatively easy to learn, it's the beauty part that takes some work because it requires some technical skill voicing each part right.

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