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ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
#1476668 07/18/10 06:30 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/alanchan1024
ABRSM Piano 2011-2012 Video
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=
G1 EA8D704B8441954D G2 64E0FE47FA591792
G3 D7DD10A2AC950B11 G4 5AF25907EDDBFCA9
G5 BA516FD389619D3D G6 AB18EFE9EA72B5AB
G7 E2FD014EAEEB7E0A G8 80AA18C63B1CE335
Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
alanchan1024 #1476962 07/19/10 09:49 AM
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Thank you, I think its a great idea!

Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
Samuel Laferriere #1476983 07/19/10 10:18 AM
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So, what happened to your Grade 8 videos?

Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
theJourney #1478989 07/22/10 08:29 AM
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I haven't had time to start practicing the Grade 8 pieces yet.


http://www.youtube.com/alanchan1024
ABRSM Piano 2011-2012 Video
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=
G1 EA8D704B8441954D G2 64E0FE47FA591792
G3 D7DD10A2AC950B11 G4 5AF25907EDDBFCA9
G5 BA516FD389619D3D G6 AB18EFE9EA72B5AB
G7 E2FD014EAEEB7E0A G8 80AA18C63B1CE335
Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
alanchan1024 #1479210 07/22/10 01:33 PM
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Not to downplay the work that Mr. Chan is doing, but the other side of this coin - and Mr. Chan is not alone in this trend [1] - is that posting videos/audio files of examination pieces "deprives" the student of working out for him/herself what the piece should sound like.

I know that some teachers do this, too; they play works for students to help them decide what to play or worse, what a piece "should" sound like.

It seems to me, however, that this approach takes away a lot - maybe too much - from the learning process. Yes, it's much easier to just press a button and hear how a piece "is supposed to sound" but that, to me, takes away not only from the joy of discovery but also from the real learning process of reading music.

Doesn't this approach discourage a student from reading clues in a score, such as tempo indications and dynamics? What happens to the student who is fed so much of this pre-recorded material that s/he cannot properly read an unknwon score, but has to have an example played to understand what is already given in the score?

It seems to me that this approach feeds too much into the need for instant satisfaction, but it also does dull the learning process considerably and may not, therefore, be the pedagogical tool that some might think it is.

[1] RCM, Toronto, currently issues some of its examination repertoire scores with CDs.

Regards,


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Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
BruceD #1479251 07/22/10 02:45 PM
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I'd like them more if the performances were better. Students should be exposed to high-quality, artistic performances. I can't imagine many of these performances receiving top marks.

This for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBevTytAL5Q

It's an interesting project, and one that could be very useful. Suzuki had great success in encouraging students to listen to performances by great artists as part of the learning process. But I think the producers of the series could aim higher where the artistry is concerned. Hire an official examiner to do the tutorials, or, better still, have someone like Stephen Hough or Murray Perahia demonstrate just how wonderful a Kuhlau Sonatina could sound, and you'd really have something special! (I often wish concert artists, college faculty, and independent teachers took more of an interest in each other.)


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Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
BruceD #1479308 07/22/10 04:20 PM
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ABRSM also sell cd recordings of their examination pieces.
I also wonder what the OP means on his video comments regarding not having all the sheets and asking people if they can help. Does this mean he has not actually purchased the books containing the music ?

Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
Ejay #1479353 07/22/10 05:33 PM
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Indeed. The standard of the ABRSM CDs and downloadable files is quite high indeed producing reference recordings with successful artists such as Joanna MacGregor, Pier Lane, Melvyn Tan, etc.

http://abrsmpublishing.dloadshop.com/index.asp?a=6

There are already lots of terrible videos on youtube of bad performances of unpolished renditions of the exam pieces, so the more the merrier. Hopefully not too many kids will be copying what they see on youtube but will be learning to play properly from a good teacher.

Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
theJourney #1483668 07/29/10 08:54 AM
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It should be a reasonable expection that a youtube video won't have the same quality as the publisher's CD. Also, my videos were recorded live without edition.
It should also be a reasonable expectation that youtube is a platform for "everyone" putting their videos. As a student, one can always learn from a particuar performance (whether good or bad). And I don't believe there is any "harm" to watch any bad performance (as you already knew it was bad, so you would not copy it). After all, I don't believe any of my videos belong to this "bad performance" category. They are not perfect, nor high-quality / artistic; but I am sure, if you were a piano teacher, you would be reasonably satisfied if your average students play like that, unless you are selective and only take in the very talented students. Please be fair.


http://www.youtube.com/alanchan1024
ABRSM Piano 2011-2012 Video
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=
G1 EA8D704B8441954D G2 64E0FE47FA591792
G3 D7DD10A2AC950B11 G4 5AF25907EDDBFCA9
G5 BA516FD389619D3D G6 AB18EFE9EA72B5AB
G7 E2FD014EAEEB7E0A G8 80AA18C63B1CE335
Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
Kreisler #1484429 07/30/10 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
I'd like them more if the performances were better. Students should be exposed to high-quality, artistic performances. I can't imagine many of these performances receiving top marks.

This for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBevTytAL5Q

It's an interesting project, and one that could be very useful. Suzuki had great success in encouraging students to listen to performances by great artists as part of the learning process. But I think the producers of the series could aim higher where the artistry is concerned. Hire an official examiner to do the tutorials, or, better still, have someone like Stephen Hough or Murray Perahia demonstrate just how wonderful a Kuhlau Sonatina could sound, and you'd really have something special! (I often wish concert artists, college faculty, and independent teachers took more of an interest in each other.)


I agree. I could imagine teachers telling students "don't make the staccatos so clipped," or "don't drop your wrist on every note," - for example - and the student saying, "but that's how it is on the video."

I think the performances should be as well thought out, and polished as possible for every piece, otherwise don't bother. Post a midi recording.

Having concert artists demonstrate is a good idea.

Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
Phlebas #1485515 07/31/10 09:33 PM
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I'm not sure that a student has anything at all to gain by watching performances that would not receive a distinction mark in an exam.

The standard of the performances in ABRSM recordings is excellent, with exceptional pianists participating in the process.


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Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
Elissa Milne #1485640 08/01/10 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
[...]
The standard of the performances in ABRSM recordings is excellent, with exceptional pianists participating in the process.


To come back to my original question : Why do students need demonstration recordings of examination pieces at all?

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
BruceD #1485716 08/01/10 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceD

To come back to my original question : Why do students need demonstration recordings of examination pieces at all?
Regards,

There are a lot of self-taught people, for whatever reason not having a teacher. Listening to demo recordings is one of their ways to get familiar with the music. The definition of "usefulness" is subjective. I am sure there are a number of people finding the listening to be useful to them. Actually, for self-taught people, listening to anything better then how they currently play would be "useful". It gives an extra piece of information to them (bearing in mind they do not have to copy what they listened). A piece of information is knowledge; and I am sure it is a positive thing.


http://www.youtube.com/alanchan1024
ABRSM Piano 2011-2012 Video
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=
G1 EA8D704B8441954D G2 64E0FE47FA591792
G3 D7DD10A2AC950B11 G4 5AF25907EDDBFCA9
G5 BA516FD389619D3D G6 AB18EFE9EA72B5AB
G7 E2FD014EAEEB7E0A G8 80AA18C63B1CE335
Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
BruceD #1485717 08/01/10 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
[...]
The standard of the performances in ABRSM recordings is excellent, with exceptional pianists participating in the process.


To come back to my original question : Why do students need demonstration recordings of examination pieces at all?

Regards,


I agree with you, Bruce, and thought your original post regarding this was very good. The entire idea is in opposition to what actual learning is all about. Instead of having students discover on their own and make their own determinations they're given a pattern to trace and copy. Just one more reason (among so many) that we don't hear more successful students than we do.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
alanchan1024 #1485718 08/01/10 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by alanchan1024
Originally Posted by BruceD

To come back to my original question : Why do students need demonstration recordings of examination pieces at all?
Regards,

There are a lot of self-taught people, for whatever reason not having a teacher. Listening to demo recordings is one of their ways to get familiar with the music. The definition of "usefulness" is subjective. I am sure there are a number of people finding the listening to be useful to them. Actually, for self-taught people, listening to anything better then how they currently play would be "useful". It gives an extra piece of information to them (bearing in mind they do not have to copy what they listened). A piece of information is knowledge; and I am sure it is a positive thing.


If someone feels confident enough in their abilities to "teach" themselves, then they should be able to figure out "how it goes" on their own, yes? I'm sorry, but that's just another strike against the "I don't need a teacher" mindset I hear more and more.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
stores #1485798 08/01/10 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
[...]
The standard of the performances in ABRSM recordings is excellent, with exceptional pianists participating in the process.


To come back to my original question : Why do students need demonstration recordings of examination pieces at all?

Regards,


I agree with you, Bruce, and thought your original post regarding this was very good. The entire idea is in opposition to what actual learning is all about. Instead of having students discover on their own and make their own determinations they're given a pattern to trace and copy. Just one more reason (among so many) that we don't hear more successful students than we do.
Ah, well, that is an excellent question: "why do students need demonstration recordings of examination pieces at all?"

I don't think that students do need demonstration recordings as a rule, but I can think of [limited] circumstances where it could be an interesting/useful/beneficial exercise to hear a good performance.

I can't think of any circumstances where it could be an interesting/useful/beneficial exercise to hear a recorded performance (of a piece the student was preparing for their own exam) that was less than excellent.


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Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
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www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
Elissa Milne #1485804 08/01/10 10:58 AM
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My understanding is that one beneficial aspect of the ABRSM recordings is that teachers have an opportunity to hear music for which they may not have the score - and this can encourage exploration of the options listed which are NOT in the published ABRSM grade book.

Teachers who are uncertain of performance aspects of various pieces can also be guided by these ABRSM-authorised performances. Which as far as I can see, stores, does nothing to diminish the validity of your well-made points above.

And which also adds to the importance of such teachers getting good input from these recordings.


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Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
Elissa Milne #1486173 08/01/10 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
I can't think of any circumstances where it could be an interesting/useful/beneficial exercise to hear a recorded performance (of a piece the student was preparing for their own exam) that was less than excellent.


I'm not sure I can agree with this. Its perfectly possible to demonstrate one aspect of nuance without offering a completely polished performance. I can talk about phrasing and rubato for example and demonstrate that without necessarily being able to play something note-perfect.

Theres plenty of markings on any score that can be interpretted or implemented in slightly different ways and surely only by hearing a variety of different ways (and perhaps trying them out for themselves) will a student be able to reach their own conclusions about how they want to play something.

Any recording may not be perfect - but it might still have something different that causes the student to consider how they play. How can this be a bad thing?


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Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
DadAgain #1486198 08/01/10 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DadAgain
Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
I can't think of any circumstances where it could be an interesting/useful/beneficial exercise to hear a recorded performance (of a piece the student was preparing for their own exam) that was less than excellent.


I'm not sure I can agree with this. Its perfectly possible to demonstrate one aspect of nuance without offering a completely polished performance. I can talk about phrasing and rubato for example and demonstrate that without necessarily being able to play something note-perfect.

Theres plenty of markings on any score that can be interpretted or implemented in slightly different ways and surely only by hearing a variety of different ways (and perhaps trying them out for themselves) will a student be able to reach their own conclusions about how they want to play something.

Any recording may not be perfect - but it might still have something different that causes the student to consider how they play. How can this be a bad thing?


Clearly, you've not listened to some of the, shall we say, "hmmmm, ok then" performances listed above. If a recording is to be used as a teaching tool then, by all means, it should be top notch and not something put together by someone not quite the same caliber as many of the students who will be watching.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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Re: ABRSM 2011-2012 Piano on Youtube: Video + Tutorial
stores #1486262 08/01/10 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by stores
Clearly, you've not listened to some of the, shall we say, "hmmmm, ok then" performances listed above.


Ok - so I'd only listened to some of the early grade stuff - which was merely unremarkable. I've now gone and listened to some of the later stuff and still dont think the OP deserves quite such a torrent of abuse.

I still maintain that even if a performance isnt 'excellent' it can still be an effective demonstration of *something* (even if its an example of how a piece can be destroyed by lack of rhythmic flow, or how mechanical playing can be bland and dull without some injection of dynamic contrast and phrasing etc etc).


We've all seen road safety adverts of the "slow down and pay attention or *THIS* happens <insert grevious crash scene>" genre - Why cant musicians use the same technique to get a message across? i.e. "This is what you'll sound like if you dont do xxx"

Last edited by DadAgain; 08/01/10 11:23 PM.

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