2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
50 members (Bostonmoores, 20/20 Vision, Cheeeeee, Adam Reynolds, Burkhard, 1200s, clothearednincompo, akse0435, busa, 36251, 5 invisible), 1,315 guests, and 298 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
Hello, everyone,

I am not sure if this topic was discussed in the past, but my short search did not give me any results, so I would like to start this thread. smile

Why are natural keys white and accidental keys black?

I recently realized that some early 19th-century antique pianos have white accidentals and black naturals instead.

So when did the standardization, if not the restriction of the freedom, of the color of piano keys begin to form?

Also, when did the arrangement of these piano keys take its shape? I do know that the invention of piano is mainly attributed to Bartolomeo Cristofori of Italy, who improved harpsichord's design.

So I am perhaps safe to suppose that a harpsichord already had such arrangement of keys that we see today. smile

Why are pianos' accidental keys shorter and taller than natural keys? Why not otherwise?

I would like to listen to your knowledge and guesses about these questions, so please feel free to leave any comments.

Please kindly excuse my curiosity, too.

Thank you. smile

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Sorry, could not resist! shocked

Good question, though, but I'm afraid I'll have to wait for others to chime in. smile


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 316
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 316
Avantgardenabi,
I never have thought about this, though i think it should peak some interest here. I just don't have the answers.

Horowitzian,
Is this the first time you've posted pictures of your Steinway? laugh Nice piano and i'm GREEN with envy! wink :p They are making green houses for the enviroment now days,why not green pianos.there has to be a market for them! :rolleyes:


Be well and happy,
Terry C. smile

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
It's to do with ivory. Clavichords and harpsichords had wooden surfaces. That picture makes me feel sick.

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
laugh On one hand, I wish it was mine, since it's a D. On the other, I wouldn't have such a nasty looking monstrosity in the house... :rolleyes:

Good thing that was a one off piano, huh?

Good ol' ebony for me, thank you very much. :p


Quote
Originally posted by Terry C.:
Horowitzian,
Is this the first time you've posted pictures of your Steinway? laugh Nice piano and i'm GREEN with envy! wink :p They are making green houses for the enviroment now days,why not green pianos.there has to be a market for them! :rolleyes:


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
S
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Dang, that bilious color made me think of one of those Gibson-era custom Baldwins. eek

Steven

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Quote
Originally posted by sotto voce:
Dang, that bilious color made me think of one of those Gibson-era custom Baldwins. eek

Steven
Seasick green, I call it. [Linked Image]

Ghastly, is it not?

BTW, check your messages.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Quote
Clavichords and harpsichords had wooden surfaces.
That is interesting. Ebony is a very hard wood which can withstand the impact, the same reason why violin fingerboards are (should be) made of ebony. Kbk, do you know what wood they used for the black keys? When and why was there a transition, do you know?
Quote
Why are natural keys white and accidental keys black?
I'm wondering whether it's right to call them natural and accidental. In C# major all the keys are black except for E# and B#, and an accidental would lead you to a white key. wink

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 496
Keystring, to your question: I believe in C major all the natural keys (without any exceptions) are white. smile

Why couldn't piano makers just use ivory for accidental keys? Better yet, why ivory?

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
They used ebony for naturals though sometimes cheated for the top notes (as they were not used that much) and dyed a different wood. My experience would say ivory allowed for a technique more suited to piano.

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 54
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 54
Here's my Theory:

Many organ, harpsichord, and general keyboard instruments of the pre-fortepiano era had black naturals and white sharps/flats. This eventually got changed, so there had to have been a reason right?

My thought, is that, due to shadow, there is a dark spot between notes. If a natural is black, it could be hard to see where the key 'seam' is. so solution? invert colors. Make sense?

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,305
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,305
Quote
Originally posted by keystring:
I'm wondering whether it's right to call them natural and accidental. In C# major all the keys are black except for E# and B#, and an accidental would lead you to a white key. wink
Or a black key if you have a harpsichord like mine smile
I believe the correct terminology when you're talking about the actual bits of wood rather than the musical sounds produced by pressing them, is "sharps" and "naturals". My harpsichord has ebony naturals and bone-topped sharps.


Du holde Kunst...
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Thanks, everyone. I never realized that those keys were called anything other than black and white keys. :p Wouldn't it be better if the black ones were called "accidentals" since the sharps are also used to play flats?

Kbk, I'm wondering how the ivories are better suited to the playing of the fortepiano. I was imagining the smoother texture, perhaps.

I suppose that ivory would not mould well to the shape of the sharps, plus they would want to preserve the contrasting colours.

A very interesting question.

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 563
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 563
My theory is that the black naturals made it hard for the eye to easily distinguish one key from another peripherally because the black had so little contrast with the black gaps between the keys. From a sensory standpoint I can see how having white naturals would make a piano easier to play.


Scott
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
K
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
Maybe it was cost.
Solid ivory sharps would be much more expensive than those thin ivory covers for the naturals.
Just a guess.

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,895
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,895
Quote
Originally posted by kenny:
Maybe it was cost.
Solid ivory sharps would be much more expensive than those thin ivory covers for the naturals.
Just a guess.
Good point, but there is another consideration: most of the instruments I know have bone or ivory-topped sharps (as Currawong mentioned), rather than solid.

So if cost was the main objective, it seems pianos would have ivory-topped sharps and wood naturals.

I think keyboardklutz has the right idea: ivory naturals are harder than wood, and it is more suited to the heavier blows required on a modern piano action. The sharps seem to get less wear-and-tear so it seems only 'natural' whome to make them of wood.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
I think many of the older pianos had ebony wood, which is naturally black, for sharps and flats.

Ivory for the naturals..

It would be interesting to see some history as to why it has ended up this way.


On the mountain of the lord it will be provided.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,895
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,895
Quote
Originally posted by jman37:
I think many of the older pianos had ebony wood, which is naturally black, for sharps and flats.
I think some builders still use ebony. I know it is used in new pipe organs.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 155
Decided to change your post, Mr whippen?


On the mountain of the lord it will be provided.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Quote
Originally posted by jman37:
I think many of the older pianos had ebony wood, which is naturally black, for sharps and flats.

Ivory for the naturals..

It would be interesting to see some history as to why it has ended up this way.
Many builders still do use ebony. And no, it is not always black, though the finest ebony is. I've seen guitars with rather brown ebony fingerboards. I imagine that piano keys tend to get the blackest ebony, though.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Gombessa, Piano World, platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Country style lessons
by Stephen_James - 04/16/24 06:04 AM
How Much to Sell For?
by TexasMom1 - 04/15/24 10:23 PM
Song lyrics have become simpler and more repetitive
by FrankCox - 04/15/24 07:42 PM
New bass strings sound tubby
by Emery Wang - 04/15/24 06:54 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,385
Posts3,349,185
Members111,631
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.