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Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: jcabraham] #1476167
07/17/10 03:44 PM
07/17/10 03:44 PM
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And, as someone pointed out, the conclusion was that it wasn't mastered without at least 10,000 hours of focused practice, regardless of "innate talent". But that amount of practice does not guarantee mastery.

10,000 hours is a minimum necessary, not a sufficient guarantee.

Cathy


Cathy
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Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: jcabraham] #1476239
07/17/10 07:06 PM
07/17/10 07:06 PM
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Inlanding Offline
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Originally Posted by jcabraham
Originally Posted by Inlanding
I don't believe a word of it. There are far too many variables when it comes to playing the piano that can't be summed up in a simple number.

Mastery is another loaded term. Just ask any of the 'masters' how many hours it took them - many will say mastery is as elusive as it was on day-one. wink

Glen


This is not some froot-loopy made up self-help. The original research was done by Anders Ericsson, and published in peer-reviewed journals. Take a look at the papers and then decide.


Thanks for forwarding a peer-reviewed article, referencing all sorts of other studies and articles ascribing what experts in one field say about what the experts in other fields are doing and how they might have arrived there. I very much appreciate reading and digesting articles like that. That well written article makes the OP's claim anything but a simple truth.

However, there isn't much in there addressing the mastery of piano musicianship specifically (skill, etc, not just knowledge), so the mystery of it still hangs out there - it addresses expertise and generalizing to other endeavors.

To quote the article:
The same acquired representations appear to be essential for experts' ability to monitor and evaluate their own performance (Ericsson, 1996; Glaser, 1996) so they can keep improving their own performance by designing their own training and assimilating new knowledge.

Also, I never claimed or intimated gaining expertise is some fruit-loopy made up self-help concept. I assert mastery (a different term) is much more complicated (perhaps more of a process) when it comes to music performance and that 10,000 hours as a means to an end is an oversimplification, that's all.


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Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Nicole94707] #1476304
07/17/10 10:04 PM
07/17/10 10:04 PM
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10,000 hours wins!! The 10,000 hours rule has been "scientifically studied" and seems to be the "latest fad" in human performance science. sleep

With that said, just 1 hour per day for 10 years is only 3650 hours - not enough to achieve master status. In a 10 year period, one would have to practice for about 2.74 hours per day to get the 10,000 hours. smile

Some of you are either there already, or well on your way! I am way behind. frown


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Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach


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Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: CebuKid] #1476355
07/18/10 01:10 AM
07/18/10 01:10 AM
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I don't think this kid put his 10,000 hours in yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9BXa22qWTc&playnext_from=TL&videos=EuyiA1B1gCU

Nor this kid, not even close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUx4t4W4eVY


The "Simple Truth" ain't so simple.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Wizard of Oz] #1476358
07/18/10 01:18 AM
07/18/10 01:18 AM
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Wizard, I was about to post the same exact links earlier!

You know what they say... great minds and all wink

But seriously. It's a load of crock.


II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1476362
07/18/10 01:30 AM
07/18/10 01:30 AM
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1 down, ?? to go! *sigh*

whome


Learning to play since June 2009.
My piano diary on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/user/afpaSTU1096
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Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: BenPiano] #1476382
07/18/10 02:47 AM
07/18/10 02:47 AM
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Inlanding Offline
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More good stuff, Ben, Wiz, II

These gifted pianists know no time in years or hours, and simply defy any simple truths - Just lean back and enjoy and don't forget to pick your jaw up from the floor. What fun!! Don't you just love the internet?

George Li plays Liszt and most every other composer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7A94KdU8C8

Stephanie Trick plays Fats Waller, then Jelly Roll and any other stride pianist she wants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET3n09AfY68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjM7ialHdWk

Ariel - plays jazz, classical, and his own compositions -
Bach here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeCYdMnQA1Y

check out his website: http://www.arielpiano.com/

Glen


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Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1476389
07/18/10 02:56 AM
07/18/10 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ll
Wizard, I was about to post the same exact links earlier!

You know what they say... great minds and all wink



Haha! that's awesome, yeah I like Gadi's style. It's great with technology these days who you can discover.

I really wonder the intention of the OP, she must have known that statement to be false or was she trying to provoke some response. Or who knows, maybe that's what she really thinks.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Wizard of Oz] #1476399
07/18/10 03:40 AM
07/18/10 03:40 AM
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Posts: 191
New Zealand
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does hours incurred from past life count?

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: mr_super-hunky] #1476500
07/18/10 11:07 AM
07/18/10 11:07 AM
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Posts: 120
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Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
The REAL truth is *quality* practice time, not quantity.

10,000 hours of Mary had a little lamb every day will produce a master of nothing.......except performing Mary had a little lamb of course!


Couldn't agree more!!

AK

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1476510
07/18/10 11:35 AM
07/18/10 11:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 102
Boston
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jcabraham Offline
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Originally Posted by ll
Wizard, I was about to post the same exact links earlier!

You know what they say... great minds and all wink

But seriously. It's a load of crock.


You guys understand than in any sample there will be outliers, right? All this proves is that you need more education.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Superstar] #1476511
07/18/10 11:38 AM
07/18/10 11:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 102
Boston
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Originally Posted by AlleyKatt
Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
The REAL truth is *quality* practice time, not quantity.

10,000 hours of Mary had a little lamb every day will produce a master of nothing.......except performing Mary had a little lamb of course!


Couldn't agree more!!

AK


The claim is that 10k hours, give or take, of *deliberate* practice, narrowly defined, is seen in most examples of "mastery", narrowly defined. The claim was not that you could mindlessly plonk at the piano for 10k hours. Sheesh.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: Superstar] #1476525
07/18/10 12:22 PM
07/18/10 12:22 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 20
United States
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Practice does makes perfect, but who wants to be perfect???

and as for the links, at a certain point in your life you understand that some people were just born gifted...

The wisdom is to find your own heavenly present...

Have to go and practice,

OnlinePianist


http://www.OnlinePianist.com - You Name It, We Play It
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: OnlinePianist.com] #1476571
07/18/10 02:43 PM
07/18/10 02:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 102
Boston
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jcabraham Offline
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Originally Posted by OnlinePianist.com
Practice does makes perfect, but who wants to be perfect???

and as for the links, at a certain point in your life you understand that some people were just born gifted...

The wisdom is to find your own heavenly present...

Have to go and practice,

OnlinePianist


Now, that's froot-loopy. Good luck with that.

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: jcabraham] #1476638
07/18/10 05:09 PM
07/18/10 05:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
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Originally Posted by jcabraham
Originally Posted by AlleyKatt
Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
The REAL truth is *quality* practice time, not quantity.

10,000 hours of Mary had a little lamb every day will produce a master of nothing.......except performing Mary had a little lamb of course!


Couldn't agree more!!

AK


The claim is that 10k hours, give or take, of *deliberate* practice, narrowly defined, is seen in most examples of "mastery", narrowly defined. The claim was not that you could mindlessly plonk at the piano for 10k hours. Sheesh.


Sheeesh is right..lol. I think we're all smart enough to know that 10 years and/or 10,000 hours of deliberate, intelligent, methodical practice is definitely what the O.P. meant. The jist of her statement was that there are no shortcuts.

My 1st response was tongue-in-cheek and meant to poke a little fun at all these "performance scientists" who set the 10,000 hours rule in stone. Further, this "rule" is meant for average people (like most of us here), and not the child prodigies. smile


YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach


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Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: CebuKid] #1476655
07/18/10 06:10 PM
07/18/10 06:10 PM
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San Diego, CA
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SoundThumb Offline
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From my reading of the paper, the study showed that the best professional pianists had put in 10,000 hrs of deliberate practice by age 20. The least proficient professionals had put in 5,000 hrs by age 20, and good amateurs had put in about 2,000 hrs by age 20. It didn't say anything about total number of hours to become a professional. I agree that the O.P. was trying to make the point that it takes a lot of dedicated practice, there is no short cut.

For me as an adult beginner with 0 hrs of practice before age 55, does that mean that I can at best become what?
a) An accomplished beginner
b) A struggling intermediate

Oh no! I just lost 30 min of practice reading this post and it can never be recovered.


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Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: jcabraham] #1476729
07/18/10 09:14 PM
07/18/10 09:14 PM
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ll Offline
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Originally Posted by jcabraham
Originally Posted by ll
Wizard, I was about to post the same exact links earlier!

You know what they say... great minds and all wink

But seriously. It's a load of crock.


You guys understand than in any sample there will be outliers, right? All this proves is that you need more education.


The problem with statistics like this (whoopty doo, trust me, I've done enough classes and studies in that) is that they don't approach the other variables in terms of the arts.

Maybe it is you who needs to be educated.

The issue lies in the term "master" and what that means. A concert pianist is "more of a master" at the piano than, say, a DMA piano teacher? Because of what, their fame? What about comparing rock/roll piano to classical? Do you think 10k hours are necessary in that to become a master?

It's all nonsense. Studies like this make absolutely no sense in this side of the academic or practical world.


II. As in, second best.
Only lowercase. So not even that.
I teach piano and violin.
BM, Violin & Percussion Performance 2009, Piano Pedagogy 2011.
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: ll] #1476765
07/18/10 10:22 PM
07/18/10 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ll

It's all nonsense. Studies like this make absolutely no sense in this side of the academic or practical world.


Thank you.


Piano teacher.
Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: rocket88] #1476903
07/19/10 06:49 AM
07/19/10 06:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,579
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Are you guys suggesting that the study is flawed?
Do you feel that the facts they gathered are trumped by your armchair guesses?

Re: The Simple Truth to Mastering Piano [Re: MacMacMac] #1476906
07/19/10 06:57 AM
07/19/10 06:57 AM
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Posts: 6,541
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Nikolas Offline
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When I read the study a few months back, it seemed that the guy was targetting the idea of 'innate talent'. So he claimed that the best students of the bunch had studied 10,000 hours or more, while the mediocre had studied 7-10,000 hours or something to that idea.

I will abide to that idea, as a teacher, and a professional musician and speak nothing of my whatever talent! I can't be a racist against my students who might or not appear 'talented' and certainly I can't pitch for a gig based on my talents!

0?

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