Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Kawai CN23 anyone ?

Hello,

I am on the verge of buying my first piano. I set out to spend a maximum of 1000 EUR and have visited the music shop twice. Both times accompanied with different piano players.
I tried several different pianos of different price classes.

The Kawai CN23 seemed my favorite. Both my firends (DP owners) played on it and found it and said it was a good value for money piano.

As I am a fully unexperience piano player it is harder for me to judge. Does anyone here own one of these, or has an expert opinion of it ?

Thank you,

Hello Fred,

I believe there are a handful of CN23/CN33 owners on this forum, however the instruments are still relatively new - especially outside of Europe.

If you have any queries about this model, please do let me know.

Kind regards,
James
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Hello James,

I have so far been unsuccessful in figuring out the sample system of this piano.
As I understand it most digital pianos use 3-4 samples per key. Does this work similarly this similar on the CN23 ?

The main thing I noticed when playing with headphones on the CN23 and comparing it to a Yamaha CLP320 was how much louder I could go. The shop owner said this was due to the CN23 having a much better dynamic.
Is this indeed so, or is this simply higher volume amplification ?

Fred,

With the exception of the EP3, all Kawai digital pianos released since mid-2008 have featured 88-key sampling. In addition, each key is sampled at multiple velocity levels, then reproduced using the proprietary Harmonic Imaging sound technology (Progressive Harmonic Imaging in the case of the CN23/CN33).

I'm afraid I do not know the reason why you found the CN23 to be louder than the CLP320 through headphones. The amplifiers for both instruments are rated at 20W. May I ask if the difference was noticeable without headphones?

Kind regards,
James
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Hi James,

Thanks you for the informative feedback. It's very much appreciated.
The difference was notable without headphones as well. I tested both instruments on their highest volume.
I did not really recognise a notable difference in volume when hitting the key very softly.
But as I gradually hit the key harder the limit for the CLP320 was reached much sooner than for the CN23.
I'd say the CN23 went 1/4 extra after the CLP320 hit it's limit.

I am a bit confused about this PHI. How many velocity levels are sampled per key for the CN23 ?

Thanks,

Hello Fred,



I'm sorry, company policy dictates that I cannot provide this information.

Some may not approve of such secrecy, however I am obliged to respect the desires of my employers.

Kind regards,
James
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James,

That's ok. I understand and respect you have to follow company policy.
To me it is not such a big deal. I was just a bit confused about the mechanics of the PHI.
I felt the piano played well. And I suppose that is what matters most.

Thanks again for the help.

Just a shot in the dark, Fred, since I'm not familiar with either of the instruments you mentioned... but could the difference be that the velocity curve is set differently in each? Maybe one is set for a harder touch and the other is set for a softer touch. If so, one would sound louder than the other with the same touch, and you could set them to the same curve if that is bothering you.

Hi Jeff,

I think that will probably have been the case.
To be sure I will try the piano out again on Thuesday and try exactly what you suggested.
It was not at all bothering me though.
It was just seemed strange to me to see such a difference between two pianos of the same price range.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Fred,

Jeff's absolutely right about the touch curve.
If possible try to perform a factory reset on both instruments to ensure that you're comparing the default settings for both - in either case the touch curve should be set to 'Normal'.



Well, the CN23 is a brand new model, while the CLP320 was launched approximately 18 months or so ago. I am undeniably biased, however in my opinion the CN23 is one of the strongest entry level console DPs available.

Kind regards,
James
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I've played the CN23 and CN33 in a store, I've been back twice and have been saving for a CN33. One more payday to go! They are both great DP's for the money IMHO, good sounds, great keyboard action, nice style. I also test played as comparison Rolands HP302, 305, 207 (*2*) RD700GXF, Yamaha P85, P155, the new Korg and some others. The Kawai was best for me at my budget. I prefer the CN33 over the 23 purely on looks.

Being a newbie, the terminologies are confusing me. In sampling piano, I thought the sound of every key is sampled, and the production of digital piano sound is further refined by introducing different sampling velocity. But the term "88-key sampling" seems to imply something different yet. What exactly is this "88-key sampling"?

I also wondering if, by establishing a "harmonic image" sound map, and then mathematically transforming the data, Kawai might indeed be using a hybrid approach: modeling sampled frequencies? Perhaps this approach allows the Kawai sound reproduction not to be quantized by the 3 or 4 sampled levels. But through data interpolation, and extrapolation as well, the intensity of sound reproduction, is correlated to the force striking on the corresponding key, follows basically a sloped continuum. If true, Kawai's hybrid approach predates Yamaha's hybrid version by a few years.

If indeed Kawai's "harmonic imaging" technology is a hybrid approach, then perhaps their version is controlled by the engineer's software algorithms. In contrast, the Yamaha hybrid approach as adopted in their latest CP1/5/50 models is a hardware approach, with the user given modeling of sampled sounds by controls via knobs and push buttons on the piano console.

Such is my gibberish on a lazy Saturday afternoon.

I believe that means no stretching is going on.


Huh?

I think harmonic imaging is a way to blend velocity layers. But who really knows (well, some do, but for contractual reasons they aren't allowed to talk about it in realistic terms) - it's basically baby talk marketing speak, i.e. a snow job. DPs are so advanced *cough* they can't tell you what's really going on in there without killing you afterward.

Hi dewster,

What does "no stretching" mean? I am still not getting it. How is "88-key sampling" different from the "sampling" technology before this point?

As for the "baby talk marketing speak", I agree with you. Kawai has "Harmonic Imaging Sound Technology". This is followed by "Progressive" and "Ultra" Harmonic Imaging Sound technologies, neither of which are explained on their website. It is as if Kawai wants to assure us, by using adjectives galore, that newer and better sound technologies have been invented and implemented.

By putting myself in the shoes of a technical writer for Kawai, it is probably an impossibly thankless job. The general public hardly understands harmonics, let alone overtones,first and second harmonics, resonance and cross resonances, ... If you go into the gory technical details, you stand to lose the customer's attention. So adjectives will have to suffice, albeit devoid of any meaning.

It is out of curiosity of what these terms mean, and frustration of not understanding them that I wrote my own interpretation, hoping that it would attract someone in this forum who can share some insight. Perhaps, as you commented, this is much ado about nothing on my part. So, I should just learn to listen and appreciate the quality of sound, rather than worrying about whatever technology is behind the sound production.

YoungH,



I believe this point is touched upon in the CN23/CN33 brochure:



http://www.kawai.co.jp/worldwide/support/catalogue/CN-e.pdf

Kind regards,
James
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Look at the explanation for test 7 at this post (down in the fine print at the end):

The DPBSD Project!

That post might answer some of your other technical questions as well.

DP manufacturers used to provide more real technical information, stuff like sample ROM utilized per voice. But I guess that's back when they were proud of their accomplishments, and had some faith in the mental acuity of their customers.


I think you should do both, worry about the sound technology and listen to the aesthetics of the sound. The technology can help you know whether or not you will be satisfied with the sound long-term. Check out the DPBSD thread where we try to figure out the sound technology on our own.

Hi James and dewster,

Thanks to you both for your help, I think I now understand the concept of "note stretching". The explanation in fine print #7 in DPBSD is particularly illuminating. But, beyond "note stretching", there is a lot more being addressed in those fine prints. It will take me a while to go through them. The paragraph in CN23/CN32 brochure cited by James confirms that I'm finally getting it.

As a newbie to piano, I don't have the facility to appreciate the difference in sound quality and keyboard touch of various models. When I field tested the pianos, they all sound pretty good and feel pretty good. For this reason, I am trying to read as much info as I can to make up for my deficiencies. The various comments and exchanges I have read in this forum have been very educational.

Thanks again for sharing your insight and experience.

YoungH,

As you correctly note, it's very difficult to satisfy the more technically-oriented consumer without bewildering those who may be less familiar with the terminology.

Understanding all the technical capabilities of an instrument is certainly very useful when searching for a new digital piano, however I also believe it is absolutely vital to play the keyboard with your own fingers and listen to the sound with your own ears. You're buying a musical instrument, not a computer, therefore worry less about the specifications table and concentrate more the quality of the keyboard action, realism of sound, and - most importantly - the sense of enjoyment you derive when playing.



Glad to hear my brochure is doing the trick.

Cheers,
James
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Hi everyone,

I am very happy with how this post turned out.
To me personally it has been exceedingly helpful.

I have not yet purchased a piano. Ever since I started this journey several weeks ago I have been learning alot about pianos.
Today I've visited the piano shop (previously visited) because I wanted to test out the Kawai CN-33.
It has a slightly higher pricetag, and has some addition technical features, such as USB.
The keys on the CN33 have "let-off simulation". I am not sure if I fully understand this added benefit.

This evening I visited another shop. A small family shop close to where I live.
They mainly sell acoustics of Kawai, Schimmel, and another brand I cannot remember.
The only digitals they had were exactly these Kawai DP's.
I asked the store owner to give me his opninion on buying a DP vs Acoustic when just learning piano and he was very much in favour of acoustics. Then I was convinced to check their rental acoustics and explained rental prices etc.
All in all that was a very informative store visit. I understand the sales person point of view, but I also understand that the store main income must come from their acoustic rentals.

Tomorrow I am going back to the first store and will check out the Kawai CN33 again, and possibly purchase it.

If anyone has some opinions on the acoustic salespersona point of view or about acoustic piano rentals, please feel free to share.