Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Composer's Lounge What's the rule with notating #'s and b's when composing?

Hello everyone,

Say if you're writing in the key of A minor, and went from a C to a chord of G#, C, and F, would you notate the G# as that or an Ab, surely an Ab because it's a smaller interval?
What's the rule with this?

Regards

If that is an inversion of F minor, you would note it with Ab because you have lowered the 3rd of F a half step.

If however it is functioning as something else, it depends. You should provide more context to get a definitive answer.

Despite it being F minor..for simplification you should stick with G# cuz there are no Ab in an A minor key.
The above post is right if you are skipping keys like an indecisive jazz player.

... the grammar books might say otherwise....but i d'ont care

I'm with Studio Joe on this one. Many players will recognize common chords such as Fm and it will be easier to read if you notate it as Ab, C, F. You could alternatively write it as G#, B#, E# and make it an E# minor, but F minor sounds much more like a chord you might encounter in the key of A minor.

Not quite sure what you're asking Sam.

When you say you "went from a C to a chord of G#, C, and F", do you mean you went from a C chord to the chord of G#,C, and F? If that's the case, then I'd use "Ab" for an Fm chord.

Not sure what you mean here either:
"would you notate the G# as that or an Ab, surely an Ab because it's a smaller interval". Why would it be a smaller interval?

John

I think he means that G# to C counts 4 notes = a diminished fourth (4), while Ab to C counts 3 notes = a major third (3).

Sam, G# C, and Ab C, are the same interval, but they have different names becase of how they are written in notation. You press the same keys and get the same sound. G# C is a diminished 4th, while Ab C is a major 3rd. They are enharmonic equivalents which means they are the same but have different names. One is not smaller than another.

It helps to distinguish between what an interval is called, and what it is. What an interval is called depends on how it is written down. G# to C involves four notes, G,A,B,C so it is some kind of fourth. Ab C involves three notes, A,B,C so it is some kind of third. Then you consider the sharp or flat and end up with diminished 4, and major 3. So much for naming.

What an interval actually is: it is the distance between two pitches. What we usually call major 3 has a particular quality regardless of which two notes you play that are a major 3 apart. Whether you press the black key for Ab, or the black key for G#, it's still the same piano key giving the same pitch. Combined with C, you still get that particular quality of that interval.

Ab, unless you've got some kind of odd voice leading where a G# would be easier to read.

Context matters. And you're probably not in A minor if you're following a C chord with CFAb... (The key signature might say A minor, but you're in a different place, or at least using borrowed chords, in which case Ab is definitely correct.)

Hmmm,
The most likely scenario a composer would end up with a F minor chord in an A minor key would be if the bass note was going stepwise downwards like a common progression.

I.e F major inversion with A bass
Then later down a semi-tone to G sharp.....not Ab, because it's just passing by...still in A-minor...unless you change keys.

But it's up to you to notate...it's just more intuitive to keep your sharps and flats in the same keys unless you are changing keys.

But that's just me..I don't read books

The basic rule with chords is the notation should spell a chord. The simplest example would be a C-chord. That is spelled C-E-G. Even though the actual pitches would be identical, it would be incorrect to write B#-E-G because there is no chordal triad that is spelled with a B, an E, and a G regardless of the presence or absence of accidentals on any note.

Also, wouldn't it be G# because that is not a modification of the original key signature of A?

I was taught that it is more correct to keep the tonic of the original root chord unchanged, so in this case to change the A into A flat changes that, because the key of the piece is A, whereas G# is not such a change, even though G# and Ab are the same note.

Am I right or wrong?

you are right if you believe you are
lol!
I saw some listz composition....geez...often he could've just write a B major chord "B D# F#" but instead he writes it as Cb D# blah blah blah lol....which just makes me think...if you could learn a piece by ear it would save sooo much confusion from learning from a sheetmusic.

Um...where in Liszt have you seen Cb D#?

That's a very good question
*lights up cigar and puts feet up on table*

I hate to point out the obvious, but there's no G sharp in A minor either :P lol. I would stick with A flat since the F minor triad in second inversion is most accurately spelled C-F-Ab

That's a very sharp observation agent Jared
I have papers to backup my point but it's lost somewhere in my files...yes..

*Lights up another cigar and loosens tie...smoking profusely*

However, G# is the leading tone in a minor and would be found in both melodic and harmonic minor scales. As others have said context is key, if the G#/Ab resolves upward to A then it would be functioning as a leading tone and G# would be the most appropriate spelling. There are many possible reasons for spelling it either way. If the other notes of the chord are indeed F and C then you're spelling an f minor chord and you need to decide if it's functioning and an f minor or as an E# minor chord. While either is possible the context would make it clear.

For those wondering why an E# minor would be appropriate spelling consider an E major chord functioning as a dominant, but instead of resolving to A minor the B and E move up in parallel fifths (or fourths) to a e# minor chord that is undoubtedly moving somewhere not in A minor. I said it was possible, not necessarily desirable.

Of course the comment sticking in the back of my mind is if you have to ask you may want to spend some quality time with some music theory books.

As far as I know, you normally use accidental sharps in sharp key signatures and accidental flats in flat key signatures. C major and A minor is a sharp key signature with 0 sharps in this context. But if there is a harmonic reason it reads more sensible with the other type of accidental, you can use it.

FWIW the sharps and flats in a key signature are not accidentals. They are the key signature. An accidental is a modification to the pitch of a given note that is different than the key signature would indicate. (This includes both an accidental in the same measure that returns the note pitch to that indicated by the key signature and a courtesy accidental that appears in the next measure to remind the musician that the pitch has returned to the key signature pitch.)

Perhaps even more to the point is that accidentals in a sharp key are not restricted to sharps and accidentals in a flat key signature are not restricted to flats. If it makes harmonic and melodic sense to have a flat in the key of D Major (2 sharps in the key signature), there is nothing wrong with that. For example if there is a common tone modulation to G minor (2 flats in the key signature) for 3 or 4 measures, it makes more sense to use accidentals than a new key signature. In that case there would be liberal use of accidental flats and accidental naturals.

The composer is certainly free to use whatever notation he/she desires in regards to accidentals, but if the composition has a series of nonsensical chord spellings:

• Musicians will complain about the piece,
• Sales of the piece will suffer,
• Teachers, conductors, and prize judges will pass over the piece, and
• If it is written for a class, the grade will suffer.

Hope that helps!

Best answer I've seen yet in this thread. Thanks Bob.

You are most welcome. I guess my music theory teacher turned me into a bit of a theory junkie.