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Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: izaldu] #1473102
07/12/10 07:14 PM
07/12/10 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by izaldu
I think so, and let me tell you, i did not like Liszt that much until i gave him some time. The Sonata, for example, took me quite some time to really enjoy; i even think i am still on that process!
But i was talking more about Liszt's non piano music. His orchestral works; that is te part of Liszt's works that i think do not have the recognition they deserve yet. My impression is that LIszt's piano music has overshadowed the rest of his works. Hopefully that will change at some point?


I enjoy the works of Liszt very much; I used to not like his works, however, they appeal to me a great deal now. The Dante Symphony is tremendous; I adore his program music! Even though it is a piano work you should check out the Dante Sonata (Deuxieme Annee VII) as well (very kool and geniously composed)! These "Dante works" appeal to me especially since Dante Alighieri is my favorite poet. I also agree that Liszt's works are very underrated. I enjoy the Liszt/Schubert Soirees de Vienne Valse-Caprices (especially No. 6 and 7), an underrated set that should definietly be played more, imo.

Horowitz playing the List/Schubert Valse-Caprices:

No. 7:


No. 6:


Dante Sonata (played by Brendel):

Part 1:


Part 2:


Dante Symphony (Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra; Conductor: Daniel Barenboim ):

Mvt. 1 "Inferno" (the rest of the symphony can be found by clicking on the video and going to Youtube):








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Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: chopinizmyhomeboy] #1473133
07/12/10 08:22 PM
07/12/10 08:22 PM
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I have yet to find a performance of the dante sonata which doesn't sound dry...somehow I know the score can sound incredible, just nobody seems to be able to pull it off. I didn't like Brendal's, Ogdon's, Volodos, etc. The search continues...

...though I think the majority of Liszt's stuff is underappreciated because either they're poor quality (Liszt wrote wayyy too many things that shouldn't have been published), or they're outclassed by the usual warhorses, the Sonata in B, Mephisto Waltz, Transcendental etudes, etc.

Last edited by Kuanpiano; 07/12/10 08:23 PM.

Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: Kuanpiano] #1473161
07/12/10 09:19 PM
07/12/10 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
I have yet to find a performance of the dante sonata which doesn't sound dry...somehow I know the score can sound incredible, just nobody seems to be able to pull it off. I didn't like Brendal's, Ogdon's, Volodos, etc. The search continues...
Basically a piece only a true Lisztian (like moi) could love. I've heard all the recordings you mention (plus Arrau and a few others which escape my memory), and I suspect only Liszt ever really pulled it off, though Brendel comes fairly close. Doubtful the Dante Sonata ever made any converts to Liszt, though IMO it has some undeniably glorious moments.

Someday, somewhere, a pianist will conquer this Everest head-on, so until then we wait. If only we could bring back Busoni...



Jason
Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: argerichfan] #1473177
07/12/10 09:51 PM
07/12/10 09:51 PM
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Kuanpiano Offline
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The heavenly themes are absolutely glorious...I dabbled a bit in it and love it all...I hope I'll one day be able to play it.

I don't understand what's going on when people say it's just "tritone, tritone, tritone!! OCTAVES!!!BOOM!"; it's fantastically virtuosic, but also filled with atmosphere, drama, and profound insight. Truely inspired.


Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: argerichfan] #1473229
07/12/10 11:34 PM
07/12/10 11:34 PM
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Damon Offline
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
I have yet to find a performance of the dante sonata which doesn't sound dry...somehow I know the score can sound incredible, just nobody seems to be able to pull it off. I didn't like Brendal's, Ogdon's, Volodos, etc. The search continues...
Basically a piece only a true Lisztian (like moi) could love. I've heard all the recordings you mention (plus Arrau and a few others which escape my memory), and I suspect only Liszt ever really pulled it off, though Brendel comes fairly close. Doubtful the Dante Sonata ever made any converts to Liszt, though IMO it has some undeniably glorious moments.

Someday, somewhere, a pianist will conquer this Everest head-on, so until then we wait. If only we could bring back Busoni...


Have you tried Ashley Wilkes? Or Jorge Bolet? I have Lazar Berman's but it falls a little short, which was disappointing since he is awesome on most of the "Years". I thought Howard did a good job here. (ducks)

Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: Damon] #1473238
07/13/10 12:10 AM
07/13/10 12:10 AM
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Kuanpiano Offline
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I just listened to Volodos again (maybe I wasn't paying attention the first time), and I couldn't stand the changes he made to the score. He monkeyed with the second "heaven" theme, and made everything a mess. I don't understand why nobody even tries to make a phrase out of the first heaven theme too?


Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: Damon] #1473249
07/13/10 12:47 AM
07/13/10 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Damon

Have you tried Ashley Wilkes? Or Jorge Bolet? I have Lazar Berman's but it falls a little short, which was disappointing since he is awesome on most of the "Years". I thought Howard did a good job here. (ducks)

Gee, haven't heard Ashley Wikes, so okay. Bolet's later Liszt recordings for Decca were rather somnambulant , though the Schubert-Liszt CDs were admirable. Berman's 'Years' are fine, good point there.

Howard the duck? I've ordered some pies which I've no intention of eating. They have other destinations.


Jason
Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: argerichfan] #1473257
07/13/10 01:09 AM
07/13/10 01:09 AM
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Just BTW, Brendel's performances of the Annees de Pelerinage (I think just the first book) and his short lectures on each piece, referenced in the YouTube videos above, are available on Netflix.

For those who have had it with Chopin's bicentennial year, hang on, just a few more months till Liszt's.

(Oh, no.... Wagner's will be coming up in not too long, as well....)

Elene


Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: -Frycek] #1473308
07/13/10 04:23 AM
07/13/10 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by izaldu
My impression is that LIszt's piano music has overshadowed the rest of his works.

Well, I definitely plead guilty to that. Any favorite non piano suggestions to begin my education?


Well all the works pointed out above (Dante Symphony, Faust, Totentanz ...); also a couple works that i recently discovered and have enjoyed a lot are the Legend of Christus Oratorio and St. Stanislaus oratorio. The latter has only been recorded once, this is the only version available as far as i know:

http://www.amazon.com/Franz-Liszt-St-Stanislaus/dp/B00014X89Ufr

Christus

http://www.amazon.com/Christus-Liszt/dp/B00000655L/ref=pd_sim_m_4

And the Legend of St. Elizabeth of Hungary
http://www.amazon.com/Liszt-Die-legende-heiligen-Elisabeth/dp/B000W9EM4O/ref=pd_sim_m_2

It's a totally different Liszt in some of these works. I hope you enjoy it.



Jason, regarding the Dante Sonata, i recently found a copy of Rafael Orozco's Liszt album from the early 90s, including the Sonata, three Sonetti del Petrarca and the Dante Sonata. Another benchmark recording in my opinion from this magnificent pianist. I willl try to upload some of these recordings to youtube as they are getting more and more difficult to find.

Last edited by izaldu; 07/13/10 04:24 AM.
Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: argerichfan] #1473361
07/13/10 08:02 AM
07/13/10 08:02 AM
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Damon Offline
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Damon

Have you tried Ashley Wilkes? Or Jorge Bolet? I have Lazar Berman's but it falls a little short, which was disappointing since he is awesome on most of the "Years". I thought Howard did a good job here. (ducks)

Gee, haven't heard Ashley Wilkes, so okay.

Ashley Wilkes = Leslie Howard. I sometimes interchange him with the actor of the same name who played Ashley Wilkes in "Gone With the Wind"

Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: Damon] #1473802
07/13/10 09:53 PM
07/13/10 09:53 PM
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Jonathan Baker Offline
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For the most part, we are all talking about Liszt, not Chopin. And so it was in their lifetime...

I love Liszt the artist. I always had a crush on him. Or maybe just shameless envy. He is far greater than the sum of his spectacular parts. Freely speaking, what I love about Liszt (among many, many things) was his child-like joy. Did any pianist in history have more fun at the keyboard than Liszt? This etudes and rhapsodies remind me of a kid in a candy store - Liszt's sheer delight in discovering and exploiting the potential of the keyboard is palpable.

Another quality of Liszt I love is his restlessness. He was never satisfied, always searching endlessly, always idealistic, his vision always reaching to the horizon of the Future. He was more Byronic than Byron.

And another thing, I rejoice in his triumph.
He was, as Saint-Saens (who knew him) said of him; "He was more Myth than Man." He truly was larger than life. He led one of the most fantastic lives in history. I admire about Liszt's fearlessness, his unparalleled courage, not only in inventing the role of concert pianist with such heroic grandeur and abandon, but in every aspect of his life and art. Even to the very end, when most artists are withdrawing into private study, Liszt was still breaking all known barriers of tonality and form. For a man in his seventies, that is brave.

And finally, he was, as Anton Rubinstein said, "The father of us all." It is hard to even imagine this art form with Liszt and Chopin standing at its center. I think Liszt , in worldly terms, had the most successful career in music history, bar none. He started out as the original sex-symbol rock star, and ended up the Venerable Master for the Ages. I have trouble conjuring up the record of another career that spanned the expanses of show-biz glamor to Mount Olympus veneration. The only other musician I can think of who came anywhere near this same profile was Leonard Bernstein (but that is another discussion).

But what of Chopin?

Chopin composes not as a pilgrim, but as an oracle - one who has already arrived. His sheer breadth of vision and emotional depth is not less than that of Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven, and he is on the same par for his revolutionary innovations and mastery of form. Chopin stands complete, a finished master and Genius from the very beginning.

With Liszt, I root for him as I did for the hero of an adventure movie. With Chopin, my personal reaction is almost an awe verging toward disbelief that he even existed. like Mozart, he seems almost unapproachable in his gifts and complete mastery. One simply and gratefully receives the gifts of his Genius and leaves in wonderment at how anyone so obviously human could write with such a transcendent level of inspiration.

Yes, this is fatuous prose, I know...

They were human beings with all the ordinary failings of our kind. But their music has haunted my dreams since childhood. Why should I not also love them for that?


Last edited by Jonathan Baker; 07/13/10 10:05 PM. Reason: spelling, as always...
Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: argerichfan] #1473822
07/13/10 10:16 PM
07/13/10 10:16 PM
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Jonathan Baker Offline
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I am sorry you are bored to sobs with Chopin. But that is not about Chopin - that it is about you. Perhaps far too much Chopin in your diet makes for monotonous eating. (I never could devote myself to any one composer for very long...)

Revisiting the Prokofiev sonatas is perhaps the antidote. Or better yet, Elliot Carter's Sonata. No heart-throb sentimentality will mar your musical enjoyment there!

Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: Jonathan Baker] #1473853
07/13/10 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Baker

And finally, he was, as Anton Rubinstein said, "The father of us all."

But of course Rubinstein was, after all, speaking of Liszt the pianist. I don't think Rubinstein understood Liszt's compositions at all, unlike the Big 5. Of course many conservative musicians had similar problems. Rubinstein's reputation as a pianist is still pretty huge, though I do wonder if it would stand up to scrutiny today. I suspect Liszt's would.

But what doesn't stand up to scrutiny are Rubinstein's myriad and exhausting catalogue of compositions. Competently written of course, but nothing better than what his conservative counterparts in the West were writing.

It has been argued that it really took a 'Rubinstein' to breathe life into his piano music, and thus it gradually fell out of fashion when Rubinstein passed away. His 5th piano concerto -to cite one example- has a signal to noise ratio which borders embarrassment, but there's enough kinetic excitement on the printed page (the coda of the 1st movement?) to make one wonder what Rubinstein would have done with it in performance. Tantalizing thought.

As for Chopin, I never said he was anything less than the embodiment of perfection. More curious why composers who are as great or greater than Chopin -Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner- continue to excite me with every year, yet currently (at least), I've just grown tired of listening to his music. It's played to death on the radio, and I need a vacation.

Yes it's all about 'me', but it's all about 'you' too, eh mate? wink

It's painfully well known on this board how much I adore the music of Sir Edward Elgar -and I do not claim he is a greater composer overall than Chopin, though they are hard to compare- but why is it that Elgar moves from strength to strength whereas Chopin gets more wearisome? Clearly something is amiss, and I don't know why that should be.

The Mozart 21st concerto and the Beethoven 5th always excite me (and how well known are they?), but another Ab polonaise and I'm outta here! laugh





Jason
Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: argerichfan] #1474075
07/14/10 10:01 AM
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Just watched Impromptu before I opened this thread! Lol. I thought much of the movie was all lubby dubby, but sounds like a bit of it might be true.


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Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1474081
07/14/10 10:18 AM
07/14/10 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandon_W_T
Just watched Impromptu before I opened this thread! Lol. I thought much of the movie was all lubby dubby, but sounds like a bit of it might be true.

Wasn't able to make it through that one...


Jason
Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: argerichfan] #1474128
07/14/10 11:44 AM
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Hehe.

I LOVED Amadeus, Immortal beloved, and kinda liked Copying Beethoven.

But Impromptu was too, as I said, luvvy dubby goochie goo like hehe.

Had good music though.


When does that Rachmaninoff movie come out?


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Re: Franz Liszt and Chopin's relationship with each other? [Re: Brandon_W_T] #1474504
07/14/10 10:51 PM
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Are ya'll on the right thread?


Slow down and do it right.
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