|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
64 members (accordeur, BWV846, Animisha, benkeys, Anglagard44, brdwyguy, 15 invisible),
2,292
guests, and
409
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 99
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 99 |
I have never been able to found out about how they interacted with each other. I have heard rumors, note these are only rumors, I am not saying they are true. I heard that Franz Liszt loved chopin's music. He even said "chopin is a better composer then me". I heard Chopin did not like Liszt and used to mock him in private. Liszt wrote a biography about Chopin. Liszt made friends with all kinds of people like popes and kings. I bet he probably tried to befriend Chopin. However Chopin had such a nasty personality he probably did not allow this to happen. Chopin did not seem to appreciate the music of Liszt.
Do you guys have any info concerning the matter?
Last edited by lordlactose; 07/10/10 03:35 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
After that "such a nasty personality" crack I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt answering you as if you're asking a serious question and not just a troll on the prowl - - -
Just about all you said about the admiration on Liszt's side was true. He definitely appreciated Chopin. Unfortunately, Chopin didn't live to know the very admirable sort of man and composer into which Liszt matured. Liszt was two years younger than Chopin still very much the brash, licentious, over the top virtuoso at the time. Still, they were unlikely friends in Chopin's early days in Paris. Chopin probably met George Sand through Liszt. They drifted apart when the close friendship between George Sand and Liszt's mistress Marie d'Agoult turned to bitter antagonism. Liszt later put it in chess terms to the effect that "when the Queens went to war their Knights were forced to go to war as well." There's also a tale (the evidence is sketchy) that Chopin and Liszt fell out when Liszt used Chopin's apartment for a sexual encounter with the fiancee of Chopin's friend Camille Pleyel while Chopin and Pleyel were visiting to England together, putting Chopin in the position of appearing to have been compliant in the seduction. The source of the notion that Chopin disliked Liszt's music (the best of which he never lived to hear) and mocked him in private is a series saucy forged letters supposedly written by Chopin to his alleged mistress Delfina Pocochka. These were "found" by a mentally disturbed musicologist named Pauline Czernicka in the 1940's and discredited about thirty years later. They were generally accepted as genuine in the interim, caused quite a stir, and found their way into many otherwise valid biographies and have been the source of much misinformation to this day. The only mention Chopin makes of Liszt in his genuine letters is to praise Liszt's playing, writing as he listened, "I wish I could steal his way of playing my etudes" and no letters that Chopin may've written to Liszt survive.
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,805
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,805 |
i tried reading the Liszt bio of Chopin. Before starting it I thought it would be incredibly interesting. The problem was that Liszt's writing style (or maybe everyone's at that time) is so flowery and convoluted that I found the book impossbile to read. The sentences he uses are two or three or more times longer than are usual today.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/10/10 04:26 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
According to Alan Walker, Liszt's girlfriend of the time, Princess Caroline von Sayn-Wittgenstein supposedly wrote it. (She wrote stuff like that as well as smoked cigars - Liszt liked brainy women). There are probably some genuine tidbits in there that she got from Liszt that are worth digging for but they're lost in so much wordy padding that I doubt Liszt himself made it through to edit it. It's literally taking me years to read it in small doses. Liszt's letters are very readable. We'd be much better off if he had written it.
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,919
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,919 |
I would simply point out that Liszt sat by Chopin's deathbed, playing Chopin's music to him.
Actions trump words (histories, letters, rumors, whatever).
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
I would simply point out that Liszt sat by Chopin's deathbed, playing Chopin's music to him.
Uh, where did you get that idea?
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410 |
Yes, I read "Chopin in Paris" and there was no mention of Liszt at Chopin's deathbed.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
Liszt wasn't there nor ever claimed to have been.
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,338
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
I haven't heard he was there either...
The nasty personality probably refers to his well-known complaints of other composers - I can see why someone would consider him as a bit of a jerk, when some of those complaints were a little bit unfounded, especially the one about Beethoven's music. I like Chopin's music, but I do not much care for Chopin's personal views.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 353
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 353 |
I've read that Liszt's biography is ill-researched and badly put together, seems odd that he would do something like that to a composer whom he admired. However, it makes sense that they wouldn't always get along. Their views on music were almost entirely different. Liszt, a young man filled with virtuoso bravura, and Chopin, a quiet man known for his unearthly pianissimo. It makes sense that there may have been some sour moments in their relatioship. However, that's not to say they didn't respect eachother. Chopin dedicated his Op.10 to Liszt!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
I haven't heard he was there either...
The nasty personality probably refers to his well-known complaints of other composers - I can see why someone would consider him as a bit of a jerk, when some of those complaints were a little bit unfounded, especially the one about Beethoven's music. I like Chopin's music, but I do not much care for Chopin's personal views. What on earth did Chopin ever say about Beethoven? The only quotation I know of is when he wrote about an unspecified trio that "Beethoven is snapping his fingers at the whole world. I've never heard anything so fine." And he did buy his favorite pupil Carl Filtsch a Beethoven score, telling the boy to "cherish this masterpiece" after he'd had a successful performance. In truth, Czernicka has a lot to answer for. Chopin wrote very little about other composers in his genuine letters yet I keep hearing how he dissed other composers in his letters. That's been repeated ad nauseum with very little to back it up. It strikes me as a case of repeat something often enough and everyone will believe it whether it has any validity or not, like Richard III's hump. And besides since when does having a contrary opinion constitute having a "nasty" personality? Does one have to pass some sort of musical correctness test to be considered on the side of the angels these days? Chopin had a bit more to say about pianists than other composers in his letters but he's remarkably tolerant of amateur performers, always finding a little something kind to say, such as "she has a nice touch," or "she's really good at dynamics." He reserved his scathing wit for professionals, a practice some members of this forum might wish to consider.
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,919
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,919 |
I would simply point out that Liszt sat by Chopin's deathbed, playing Chopin's music to him.
Uh, where did you get that idea? Well, I had read that somewhere. Can't find it now. Brief search yields: Feeling ever more poorly, Chopin desired to have one of his family with him. In June 1849 his sister Ludwika Jędrzejewicz, who had given him his first piano lessons, agreed to come to Paris. He had lately taken up residence in a very beautiful, sunny apartment at Place Vendôme 12. It was there, a few minutes before two o'clock on the morning of Wednesday, 17 October 1849, that Chopin died. His death certificate stated the cause as tuberculosis. In 2008 this finding was questioned, cystic fibrosis being offered as an alternative cause.
Later, many persons who had not been present at Chopin's death would claim to have been there. "Being present at Chopin's death," writes Tad Szulc, "seemed to grant one historical and social cachet." Those actually around his bed appear to have included his sister Ludwika, Princess Marcelina Czartoryska, George Sand's daughter Solange and her husband Auguste Clésinger, and Chopin's friend and former pupil Adolf Gutmann, his friend Thomas Albrecht, and his confidant, Polish Catholic priest Father Aleksander Jełowicki.
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
There was actually a cartoon - some fashionable woman apparently dying of shame, captioned "The only countess who wasn't at Chopin's bedside."
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
Those actually around his bed appear to have included his sister Ludwika, Princess Marcelina Czartoryska, George Sand's daughter Solange and her husband Auguste Clésinger, and Chopin's friend and former pupil Adolf Gutmann, his friend Thomas Albrecht, and his confidant, Polish Catholic priest Father Aleksander Jełowicki. And most likely Chopin's Irish manservant "my good Daniel," and a Polish nurse whom Chopin's sister took back with her to Poland to work for their mother. Somehow they always manage to forget the servants.
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 769
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 769 |
I have Tad Szulc's book, some people say it is not too accurated, but according to him Chopin met Sand in a reception offered by Liszt and his mistress Marie D'Agoult on 10/24/1836. Also, he says that Chopin and Liszt were friends (not close friends, but friends) until Sand and Marie D'Agoult fight.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453 |
Music is my best friend.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,338
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
I haven't heard he was there either...
The nasty personality probably refers to his well-known complaints of other composers - I can see why someone would consider him as a bit of a jerk, when some of those complaints were a little bit unfounded, especially the one about Beethoven's music. I like Chopin's music, but I do not much care for Chopin's personal views. What on earth did Chopin say about Beethoven? The only quotation I know of is when he wrote about an unspecified trio that "Beethoven is snapping his fingers at the whole world. I've never heard anything so fine." And he did buy his favorite pupil Carl Filtsch a Beethoven score, telling the boy to "cherish this masterpiece" after he'd had a successful performance. Czernicka has a lot to answer for. In truth, Chopin wrote very little about other composers in his genuine letters yet I keep hearing how Chopin dismissed other composers, etc. That's a statement that's repeated ad nauseum with very little to back it up. It strikes me as a case of repeat something often enough and everyone will believe it whether it has any validity or not, like Richard III's hump. Though why should Chopin not be entitled to his opinion no matter what it was? Does one have to pass some sort of test to be musically correct these days? Does disagreeing with accepted opinion constitute having a "nasty" personality? BTW in his letters he's remarkably tolerant of amateur performers, always finding a little something kind to say. He reserved his scathing wit for professionals, a practice some members of this forum might wish to consider. Delacroix recounts a conversation with Chopin on Beethoven, in which Chopin criticizes Beethoven pretty harshly. I'm sorry - I don't have the patience to type it out. It can be found in Composers on Composers or online, possibly. There are several works, at least, dealing with Chopin and trying to escape the influence of Beethoven and his music - he generally found him distasteful. This is not surprising - some of the romantics were trying to forge their own paths, and did not want to be in debt to the old masters. It fits in with the times, and with Chopin's works. I have read that he refused to publish his Fantasie-Impromptu because it was too similar, owed too much to previous composers (most likely the Moonlight Sonata). Of course, Chopin can have his opinion. And I can have an opinion on Chopin's opinions lol!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921 |
[Delacroix recounts a conversation with Chopin on Beethoven, in which Chopin criticizes Beethoven pretty harshly. I'm sorry - I don't have the patience to type it out. It can be found in Composers on Composers or online, possibly. There are several works, at least, dealing with Chopin and trying to escape the influence of Beethoven and his music - he generally found him distasteful. Is this in Delacroix's Journal? I'll take your word for it. Chopin and Delacroix had some really good talks. It sounds to me as if Chopin did have some decidely mixed feelings about Beethoven as do many. (I do too as a matter of fact, often finding him bombastic, but sometimes sublime. ) Re Fantasie Impromptu - It's also been suggested that he fancied there was too much resemblance to Ignaz Moscheles's Impromptu in Eb major op.89. There's also evidence - an extant private copy - that suggests that Chopin wrote it on commission for an individual's private use and simply no longer considered it his to publish.
Slow down and do it right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651 |
[Delacroix recounts a conversation with Chopin on Beethoven, in which Chopin criticizes Beethoven pretty harshly. I'm sorry - I don't have the patience to type it out. It can be found in Composers on Composers or online, possibly. There are several works, at least, dealing with Chopin and trying to escape the influence of Beethoven and his music - he generally found him distasteful. Is this in Delacroix's Journal? I'll take your word for it. Chopin and Delacroix had some really good talks. It sounds to me as if Chopin did have some decidely mixed feelings about Beethoven as do many. (I do too as a matter of fact, often finding him bombastic, but sometimes sublime. ) Re Fantasie Impromptu - It's also been suggested that he fancied there was too much resemblance to Ignaz Moscheles's Impromptu in Eb major op.89. There's also evidence - an extant private copy - that suggests that Chopin wrote it on commission for an individual's private use and simply no longer considered it his to publish. I've not ever read anything from Chopin himself concerning many composers (outside of the rather well known quotes regarding Schumann). I've HEARD many times over the years that Chopin wasn't necessarily fond of LVB, but I don't hold too tightly to these accounts, especially being that Chopin was so obviously inspired by LVB in more than a few important works.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,470
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,470 |
Not only was Chopin quite obviously influenced by Beethoven, but some of his sonatas were a standard part of his teaching repertoire.
Delacroix once wrote something about Chopin playing Beethoven "divinely," if I remember correctly, and said that was better than a lot of talk about esthetics. I believe Delacroix was heavily involved with writing on the subject of esthetics at the time.
(Unfortunately, I decided to forgo purchasing a copy of Delacroix's journal when I saw one at the Louvre a few years ago, and bought his collected correspondence with Mme Sand instead. Tant pis, now I can't look all this up.)
Wilhelm von Lenz, a student of both Liszt and Chopin, the guy who wrote the biography of Beethoven that divided his life into three style periods, complained that Chopin's playing of Beethoven, while wonderful, was "feminine," whatever that's supposed to mean. (Perhaps it meant that he didn't beat the (*&(*^$ out of the piano! And should females then never play Beethoven?) At any rate, we know Chopin regularly did play Beethoven, and he is not known to have any extremely negative opinion of him.
Frycek has covered this subject with her usual thoroughness and clarity, so I have little to add, except that quoting the Czernica letters as fact should probably be an offense that gets one banned from these pages! The trouble being that they are so often quoted by sources that seem reputable that it's hard for the non-obsessed, casual reader to sort out the truth.
Elene
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,403
Posts3,349,419
Members111,636
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|