Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too

Regardless of the appropriateness of that sort of name-calling, abjectly ignorant homophobic comments aren't simply a difference of opinion. And I don't see how you can think that calling people's behavior "aberrant" is anything but rude. It's pretty much the same as calling them freaks or monsters.

Holy crap, and it goes on and on and on and on and on....

I've dropped it - I suggest you do so as well. We have different opinions on the subject, and you've made your very loud point that you're offended by my opinion. Now move on. I get it. I think we all get it.

Is it just me, or just Sydney newspapers, but every few months or so some pianist/piano teacher or other somewhere in the world seems to be awaiting trial on sexual abuse charges.....

I don't think he was responding to you, but you're right...we all get it (I don't think I need to spell that out).

If you really had dropped it, you wouldn't have responded like this. Or responded at all.

I don't take direction about when to "move on" very well; I do that on my own volition when I decide it is time. But I can certainly see why you might be anxious for that to happen, since it was hardly just me alone that was offended by your so-called "opinion". Maybe it is you who should be the one needs to move on.

It doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. If you want to trundle into a thread and spout homophobia that's your prerogative, but you have no right to complain when people react accordingly.

wow guys comon. If you really want to argue over this please settle this in a less public way. I understand that some people would get pissed over this; if I was homosexual I might have too..or not. The reason is that we can all forgive those who have made us mad (no matter how mean spirited, etc. he/she said it) and I am sure Mattardo is a nice guy. If you want to talk about this touchy subject, please settle it in a nice manner privately. This is a thread about a pianist not a homosexual thread. I'm sure we can all get along together and not let this issue get in the way of piano discussion.

I think we should not respect Pletnev any more than we respect Socrates, who was described by Plato as boy-crazy.

FYI:

One of the reasons I leave threads like this open is that I think it's interesting to see how conversations evolve. Though we've strayed rather far from the original subject, I do think it's interesting to see where the discussions lead. While we have been led down a few hackneyed paths (homosexuality), we've also touched on a few interesting issues:

To what extent does politics enter into the situation, and the role a performing artist can play in international politics.

How perceptions of a artist's personal qualities affects people's experience of their works.

If a government turns a blind eye to illegal activity, should they share the blame for what happens?

In discussions like these, it's important to realize that anytime a controversial subject is brought up (and homosexuality is a controversial subject), some will always use it as an excuse to climb on their soapbox and educate the world on their views. Their voices are often the loudest and most extreme, but silencing them would mean missing out on some truly valuable discussions.

Only for those who live in the dark ages.

Oh come on. 'Controversial' is not a subjective term. Kreisler deserves better than that.

Yes, but those who find it controversial don't!

The subjectivist fallacy doesn't look any better the second time around, I'm sorry to say.

Maybe not to you. Controversy, what controversy?

Try the fallacy a fourth time; if nothing else it's amusing.

Alright, where I live (not in a bible belt or an Islamic republic) no one has the slightest thing to say about homosexuality. Where is the controversy?

(unfortunately):

Homosexuality Laws

Oh boy.

Let me clear a few misconceptions:
1- WR, I'm not ashamed of my views, just as the overwhelming majority of humans are not ashamed of their similar views. The difference is that political correctness silences many people, while I do not give a crap about political correctness. In a country (America) where the freedom of speech and open discussion of important issues are vital aspects of our country and how it works, any attempt at stopping free speech (no matter how much it offends a minority of citizens) should not be tolerated in any form. This wonderful aspect of our society has been backed up time and time again in the courts - it's one of the defining traits of our country.
Political Correctness attempts to appeal to minority views by stopping any discussions or viewpoints that are deemed offenseive to special interest groups.
I was foolish when I said I should just 'move on' in the discussion - I was buckling to a very vocal minority of posters on the Piano Forums who were offended by my words - posters who are attempting to use political correctness to shame me into being silent, to use the idea that their response is "appropriate" even though it's a special interest view not held by the majority of Americans. Ray Bradbury predicted in Fahrenheit Koechel 451 that books eventually became banned because very vocal minority viewpoints became increasinly offended at everyone and everything. Political Correctness is a damning example of his prescience.

If I wanted to move on from this discussion, it's not from a sense of shame on my part - it's because the conversation was going in a direction, and already had done so to be honest with you, that would have been innapropriate for this forum, as Chopinzmyhomeboy has pointed out several times. Unfortunately, the subject is about a pederast, so we are already on shaky ground, and I am not innocent of adding to the controversy - but the subject can have direct relations (homosexuality and pederasty), no matter how distasteful any of us find it. I'm not saying Homosexuals are Pederasts - so try not to quote that out of context.

2- Funkylama: I'm not complaing about the reaction: it's the typical reaction that anyone faces when they oppose political correctness and state a common social viewpoint that a few vocal citizens (5%, last count) find offensive to them, personally. The largest amount of complaining has been on your side, and even after I tried to back down from the subject and end it, it just went on and on. This is not surprising. The typical reactions were stated:
I'm a caveman.
I'm unenlightened.
I'm a homophobe.
Etc, etc.
Yes, all very expected and the usual business. Nothing surprising there. I expected at least a little intelligent conversation, but all I got was the usual "I'm offended, you brute". I'm offended too, but I don't let it get under my skin that much.

I'm not a biologist, psychologist, historian, anthropologist, religious expert - so I have to take what they tell me at face value and trust that their expertise will be reliable:

Biology has shown that human homosexuality is not physically normal.
Psychology has shown that human homosexuality is not mentally normal.
History has shown that homosexuality is not a regular practice of the majority of humans, and the events that are the result of those people.
Anthropology has shown that virtually all societies and cultures have viewed human homosexuality as abnormal.
Religions have virtually all preached that homosexuality is abnormal and a great sin.

Now, I trust what these fields have shown, and so far their findings have not been disproved (religion is a different matter, seeing as it's concerned with morality). They are commonly held views that have been proven countless times by the best experts.
If anyone disagrees with these findings, they are free to do so - but until they provide concrete evidence, they are only voicing a personal opinion, unbased in the facts. And they can do so until they are blue in the face - more power to them!

I said this several times, and I'll say it again: I don't have a problem with Homosexuals, I have a problem with some of the political rationale that they use. For instance, the claim that human homosexuality is normal. If you agree with the findings of the above scientific fields I mentioned, then human homosexuality is not normal. It is deviant, abnormal behavior - no matter what field you use to look at it with.
You can be offended with that statement, if you like - and it has been shown many times now, that some people are offended by that statement, that gathering of facts, that commonly held view. Don't expect me to believe you when you claim it's normal: no evivence has been given that is reliable and not emotional 'pleading-the-case' fallacy.

I have a great respect for the individual, the specialist, the trend-setter, the path-forger. They should celebrate their uniqueness, and what makes them special and different. What they should NOT do is claim that they are normal, just like everybody else - because they are not. They should not settle for that mediocrity. They are obviously different, whether this is shown from their sense of style, their compositional works, their impact left on history, or even their sexuality. Whatever it is - difference should be noted, even if other people don't appreciate those differences.

As it stands now, it appears to me as if the gay community has given up trying to be unique while fighting for equal political rights (Political, is THE key word here). Instead of focusing on their uniqueness, and why they need special exceptions made to current law, they are focusing on their claim that their sexual practices and lifestyle are normal, no different from anyone else. They are now claiming that, instead of civil-unions (a special exception made for special cases), they should be given the same normal marriage rights as normal, heterosexual couples. This does not help the cause at all! Because it's easily disproven, once the veil of political correctness is lifted. There are better arguments out there! I mentioned this several times already.

If you are offended and made irate by me, some random, fairly anonymous internet-poster - perhaps you need to approach your fight against discrimination with a bit tougher skin. I just don't understand why individuals would become offended when it is pointed out that they are not normal. There's NOTHING wrong with being a deviant, abnormal, or weird - this country has thrived upon it for hundreds of years. Instead of embracing those differences, those things that make us US, it seems that many people are clamoring for conformity, for acceptance, for love. Who cares if you're accepted, or loved? Who cares if your neighbor likes you, or if the cashier at 7-11 approves of your lifestyle? Are you really that psychologically weak that you need acceptance from everyone? From the whole country?

I don't hate homosexuals, just some of their latest political methods to achieve their goals. I am free to do so, just as much as they are free to hate me and my 'caveman' views: my numerous homosexual friends can attest to this (and no, don't think for a second that I'm lying or trying to make a lame point). They can use me as an example of everything that is wrong with this world, they can take me and transform me into the political devil they have been fighting for years. Shouting me down doesn't matter, and neither does my opinion. Not one bit. It won't change anything.

I'm free to hold my views, though the Piano Forum can certainly take offense at what I have said, because it's their forum, and freedom of speech doesn't apply in here. Just don't think that I hold a minority view that is freakish, cavemanish or ignorant, or based on blind, uninformed hate.
The only person I'll aplogize to is Kreisler, because he probably has 50 PMs complaining about me. Sorry...
And any other mods who have had to trudge through crap over this.

Medieval societies? I don't think the word controversy, as usually defined, applies. How about bigotry?

"a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"?
Isn't that all of us to some degree? I like my Yamaha, and am bigoted against other certain piano brands.
I like Mozart, and don't care for Ravel.