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Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Hank Drake] #1470511
07/08/10 12:21 PM
07/08/10 12:21 PM
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Iowa City, IA
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Originally Posted by Hank Drake
Even in a "progressive" society like the United States, such charges are often swept under the rug.


That's why I often think it's sad how much attention stories like these get. I would encourage everyone here in the US to look at their local sex offender registry. Most communities make addresses and photographs of registered offenders available online, and in any city of 100k or more people, I can almost guarantee that there will be at least 1 or 2 in every zip code.

Sexual abuse is a real problem. I worry that stories like this fool people into thinking it's something that mostly happens to Russian homosexuals vacationing in Thailand. It's not - it happens in Heterosexual Christian Affluent White America every day.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Kreisler] #1470530
07/08/10 01:03 PM
07/08/10 01:03 PM
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New York
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I know this is hearsyay, but according to my teacher, Pletnev's behavior is an open secret at the Moscow conservatory. Said teacher also was willing to bet that Pletnev will get out of these charges because he is extremely well connected. Reportedly Gorbachev himself facilitated the establishment of the Russian Natioanl Orchestra under Pletnev's direction.. Take with some salt.
I know this is quite naive, but I still have difficulty with the association of deep artistry and moral bankrupcy.. I somehow think they should be mutually exclusive.

Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Andromaque] #1470535
07/08/10 01:21 PM
07/08/10 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Andromaque

I know this is quite naive, but I still have difficulty with the association of deep artistry and moral bankrupcy.. I somehow think they should be mutually exclusive.

Yes, and Robert Gutman's bio of Wagner has some very difficult moments to come to terms with.


Jason
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Andromaque] #1470539
07/08/10 01:27 PM
07/08/10 01:27 PM
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Maine
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Pletnev is one of my favorite pianists so this is pretty upsetting news. If true I'm wondering how much of a difference it would make to people if it were a 14 year old girl? IMO too much importance is being placed on his supposed homosexuality. The crime here (if committed) is pedophilia.

Last edited by Peyton; 07/08/10 01:27 PM.

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Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Andromaque] #1470541
07/08/10 01:29 PM
07/08/10 01:29 PM
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Posts: 1,716
Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by Andromaque
I know this is hearsyay, but according to my teacher, Pletnev's behavior is an open secret at the Moscow conservatory. Said teacher also was willing to bet that Pletnev will get out of these charges because he is extremely well connected. Reportedly Gorbachev himself facilitated the establishment of the Russian Natioanl Orchestra under Pletnev's direction.. Take with some salt.
I know this is quite naive, but I still have difficulty with the association of deep artistry and moral bankrupcy.. I somehow think they should be mutually exclusive.


That is hearsay, but hearsay often enough has its roots in reality - even though it's not admissable in court. Horowitz's sexuality (which is not otherwise connected to this, because he was never accused of consorting with minors) was rumored for decades before he was outed in print.

The heart of the issue is this: if it was known that Pletnev was engaging in sexual activity with minors while in Moscow, someone should have reported it. If someone knew and didn't report it, they are morally culpable. And I can't help feeling that if Pletnev was the conservatory janitor, rather than an eminent pianist, it would have been reported immediately.

As to the dichotomy between artistry and moral behavior (either political, sexual, or lacking in personal integrity) I can only respond:

*Alfred Cortot
*Wilhelm Furtwangler
*Walter Gieseking
*Joyce Hatto
*Elly Ney
*Josef Hofmann
*Richard Wagner

There is no correlation whatsoever, nor any reverse correlation, between personal morality and artistry. There are great and profound musicians who were, as human beings, rotten to the core. And there are mediocre musicians who were wonderful human beings. Few were both great musicians and sterling humans (William Kapell springs to mind here).


Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Peyton] #1470543
07/08/10 01:31 PM
07/08/10 01:31 PM
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Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by Peyton
...I'm wondering how much of a difference it would make to people if it were a 14 year old girl? IMO too much importance is being placed on his supposed homosexuality. The crime here (if committed) is pedophilia.


True. And there is a double standard, perhaps not as pronounced as in years past, but it still exists. What, also, if it were not Mikhail Pletnev who was accused of this, but Natasha Pletnev? (Although it must be pointed out that molestation committed by females is exceedingly rare.)

Last edited by Hank Drake; 07/08/10 01:36 PM.

Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Hank Drake] #1470545
07/08/10 01:34 PM
07/08/10 01:34 PM
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There were always rumors/stories about Benjamin Britten's interest in boys--was he ever formally charged or arrested for immoral activities?


Yama B3
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Hank Drake] #1470547
07/08/10 01:37 PM
07/08/10 01:37 PM
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New York
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Originally Posted by Hank Drake
....As to the dichotomy between artistry and moral behavior (either political, sexual, or lacking in personal integrity) I can only respond:

.....*Joyce Hatto....

What 'dichotomy' was there for her????
(None, I think.) smile

BTW......I have no idea what you meant about J. Hofmann but then again I don't know a whole lot about him personally at all.

Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mark_C] #1470552
07/08/10 01:42 PM
07/08/10 01:42 PM
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Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Hank Drake
....As to the dichotomy between artistry and moral behavior (either political, sexual, or lacking in personal integrity) I can only respond:

.....*Joyce Hatto....

What 'dichotomy' was there for her????
(None, I think.) smile

BTW......I have no idea what you meant about J. Hofmann but then again I don't know a whole lot about him personally at all.


Hatto knowingly participated in passing off others' work as her own. (Just read her interviews, there's no way she didn't know about it.)

Hofmann got involved with an underage (female) pupil while at Curtis. It was swept under the rug. (A lot of old timers claim she seduced him and ruined his life, which is a good demonstration of the mentality that prevailed at the time.)


Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Hank Drake] #1470554
07/08/10 01:48 PM
07/08/10 01:48 PM
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Westford, MA
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Originally Posted by Hank Drake
(Although it must be pointed out that molestation committed by females is exceedingly rare.)

Not so, judging by the number of female teachers going to jail for having sex with their students in the last few years.

Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: the nosy ape] #1470555
07/08/10 01:51 PM
07/08/10 01:51 PM
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Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by the nosy ape
Originally Posted by Hank Drake
(Although it must be pointed out that molestation committed by females is exceedingly rare.)

Not so, judging by the number of female teachers going to jail for having sex with their students in the last few years.


Those are cases that get a lot of publicity because of their sensationalism and rarity, and do not reflect a statistical reality. Look at the sex offender registries of any municipality/county. They are filled with men.


Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: cfwpiano] #1470558
07/08/10 01:57 PM
07/08/10 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cfwpiano
I just don't like the idea of people claiming that piano players are more inclined to have 'peculiar taste'.
I hate to say it, but isn't that sort of a corollary of a disproportionate number of pianists being gay and a disproportionate number of gays being paedophiles?

Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: FunkyLlama] #1470559
07/08/10 02:00 PM
07/08/10 02:00 PM
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Cleveland, Ohio
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_classical_pianists

Looking at the above list, I don't see a disproportionate number of gays or lesbians.


Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: moscheles001] #1470560
07/08/10 02:02 PM
07/08/10 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by moscheles001
Originally Posted by FunkyLlama
I think that's probably the case - it stands to reason that a child will be less likely to deviate from social norms when they're in an environment in which they're rigidly enforced.


But anyone who becomes a priest or minister is likely to have been brought up in an environment in which social norms were rigidly enforced.
Well, true. I'd guess that in that case the explanation is that the total suppression of sexuality that comes with it is a very dangerous thing.

Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: FunkyLlama] #1470564
07/08/10 02:08 PM
07/08/10 02:08 PM
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Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by FunkyLlama
Originally Posted by moscheles001
Originally Posted by FunkyLlama
I think that's probably the case - it stands to reason that a child will be less likely to deviate from social norms when they're in an environment in which they're rigidly enforced.


But anyone who becomes a priest or minister is likely to have been brought up in an environment in which social norms were rigidly enforced.
Well, true. I'd guess that in that case the explanation is that the total suppression of sexuality that comes with it is a very dangerous thing.


FunkyLlama: I've been waiting for someone to say this. Bravo. You hit the nail on the head.

Is Pletnev gay? Is Pletnev a pedophile? Or, is he someone who, under societal pressure, suppressed his sexuality to the extent that it manifested itself in a very destructive way?

Sexuality is a powerful thing. What some call greed (the desire for riches and posessions) is in reality driven by a deeper desire, to find an attractive mate. Why do some people drive fancy cars, live in expensive homes, wear designer clothes - to be more desireable for mating purposes (whether it's opposite-sex or same-sex is irrelevant).


Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Hank Drake] #1470568
07/08/10 02:14 PM
07/08/10 02:14 PM
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Manchester, UK
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I'm quite shocked that there wasn't as big a backlash against CWPiano as there should have been. He effectively stated that its morally wrong to 'turn a blind eye' to the fact that there are many pianists who are gay (as if that is something that we should be concerned about even if it is true), as well as grouping child molestation and a same-sex attraction into the same category of 'peculiar taste'. I find his comments distasteful, ignorant and offensive.

Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: FunkyLlama] #1470573
07/08/10 02:20 PM
07/08/10 02:20 PM
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I have worked at or attended 5 different universities in five states over the years.

At these schools, there were a total of 22 piano faculty, not including myself.

Of those 22:

14 are male, 8 are female

18 are currently in heterosexual marriages

2 were openly homosexual, 1 of whom has been in a stable monogamous relationship for over 10 years

2 were heterosexual and single


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Kreisler] #1470574
07/08/10 02:24 PM
07/08/10 02:24 PM
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Manchester, UK
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Sounds about right. My piano school has about 70 in it I think, and I only know of 5 who are homosexual, including myself. This doesn't strike me as being significantly above average.
I don't know of any lesbians, even though there are far more female pianists here than there are male ones.

Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: debrucey] #1470582
07/08/10 02:36 PM
07/08/10 02:36 PM
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Beautiful San Diego, CA
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Interesting ... we in the 'New Age' music world rarely if ever hear
something like this going on. Instead, we get this:

Night in jail for New Age star Yanni on battery charges

[Linked Image]

MIAMI (AFP) - The police report says Yanni's girlfriend, Silvia Barthes, called police shortly before midnight Thursday, saying the musician had assaulted her and had locked her in the bathroom of his residence near Palm Beach, Florida... Full story (in case you want to read it) at http://www.sawfnews.com/entertainment/8653.aspx


Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Fugue14] #1470585
07/08/10 02:40 PM
07/08/10 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugue14
There were always rumors/stories about Benjamin Britten's interest in boys--was he ever formally charged or arrested for immoral activities?

No. But that was 'then', these days it would have landed him in plenty of hot water and trashed his career. (And BTW, they weren't 'rumors'. Britten's interest in boys -which was essentially platonic- was well corroborated.)


Jason
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