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#1467614 - 07/03/10 01:37 PM How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours?  
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Uchiha_David Offline
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Today, I saw an ads from a music store claiming that they can teach students who never touch the piano previously to be able to play pop songs within 6 hours...

It's quite unbelievable to me. Does it exist some kinds of secret methods of learning a piece quickly?

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#1467621 - 07/03/10 01:53 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Uchiha_David]  
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Kreisler Offline
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Iowa City, IA
Sort of.

You spend 6 hours saying "push that key, now push that key, then push that one" and eventually you come up with a "pop song," usually a simplified version of something popular.

Think of it like this, you could spend 6 hours with someone saying "chop that pepper up, now chop up that onion, now we roast the tomatoes, now stick it all in a pot with the eggplant" and voila!, you've made Ratatouille, and they could market it by saying "Learn to create classic French cuisine in 6 hours!"

Yes, you've made classic French cuisine and can play a pop song, but that doesn't necessarily make you a chef or a musician.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1467912 - 07/04/10 02:52 AM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Kreisler]  
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tdow Offline
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Is probably a combo of the above and chording method/lead sheets which isn't all bad when used in conjunction with traditional lessons as an "aside". Wouldn't suggest it as the only method of learning to play!


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#1467918 - 07/04/10 03:15 AM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: tdow]  
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MarcoM Offline
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how long do you think it would take to teach somebody to read the 'simplified' lead sheets you can buy, since they have big notes with the note name written inside it (so you don't need to learn the staff) always transposed in C major (no need for flats/sharps) and often with very basic chords (how many pop songs can you play with I-IV-V ?) and very basic note lengths (no dotted notes, etc.)

I'd say the first lesson to teach 'A is this key, then go A-B-C-....' the second to teach basic 'this is an 8th note, this is a quarter note', the third to teach I-IV-V in C, and the other 3 to learn a song... I do not think that this is a '6 hours to learn to play like Elton John' kind of deal wink

#1468743 - 07/05/10 04:46 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: MarcoM]  
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Gyro Offline
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Using just the white keys, you can improvise all kinds of pop/jazz-type tunes instantly--
purely by ear without knowing any music theory--since by using the white keys only,
you are essentially playing in C maj./A min. As for whether you can actually reproduce
some specific pop tune this way, that would depend on a number of factors. But
who cares? Make you own music instead of just trying to play someone else's.

After you've gotten your feet wet with the white keys only, you can then start adding
a black key here and there for variety. And so forth. All purely by ear, with no reference
to any kind of theory.

#1468786 - 07/05/10 05:37 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Gyro]  
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Kreisler Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
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Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted by Gyro
Using just the white keys, you can improvise all kinds of pop/jazz-type tunes instantly--
purely by ear without knowing any music theory


Yeah, and using just a pencil and paper, you can make any portrait-type drawing instantly, purely by eye without having any formal training... Just look at a person and draw the shapes and shades you see!

After you've gotten your feet wet with pencils, you can start adding colors to make your pictures even more lifelike.

smile

#1468789 - 07/05/10 05:45 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Gyro]  
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eweiss Offline
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Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted by Gyro
Using just the white keys, you can improvise all kinds of pop/jazz-type tunes instantly--
purely by ear without knowing any music theory--since by using the white keys only,
you are essentially playing in C maj./A min. As for whether you can actually reproduce
some specific pop tune this way, that would depend on a number of factors. But
who cares? Make you own music instead of just trying to play someone else's.

Yes! In fact, it's actually easier to create and improvise your own music than reproduce anothers. And more fun. smile


Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
#1468790 - 07/05/10 05:46 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Kreisler]  
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eweiss Offline
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Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted by Kreisler
Yeah, and using just a pencil and paper, you can make any portrait-type drawing instantly, purely by eye without having any formal training... Just look at a person and draw the shapes and shades you see!

After you've gotten your feet wet with pencils, you can start adding colors to make your pictures even more lifelike.

smile

Not a bad approach!


Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
#1468861 - 07/05/10 08:03 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: eweiss]  
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Kreisler Offline
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Iowa City, IA
It's a beginning..

#1468880 - 07/05/10 08:40 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: MarcoM]  
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Smallpiano Offline
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California
Originally Posted by MarcoM
how long do you think it would take to teach somebody to read the 'simplified' lead sheets you can buy, since they have big notes with the note name written inside it (so you don't need to learn the staff) always transposed in C major (no need for flats/sharps) and often with very basic chords (how many pop songs can you play with I-IV-V ?) and very basic note lengths (no dotted notes, etc.)

I'd say the first lesson to teach 'A is this key, then go A-B-C-....' the second to teach basic 'this is an 8th note, this is a quarter note', the third to teach I-IV-V in C, and the other 3 to learn a song... I do not think that this is a '6 hours to learn to play like Elton John' kind of deal wink


Agree with you totally!


English is my 4th languages, please excuse my grammar. Thanks
#1469346 - 07/06/10 03:56 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Gyro]  
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eweiss Offline
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Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted by Gyro
Using just the white keys, you can improvise all kinds of pop/jazz-type tunes instantly--
purely by ear without knowing any music theory--since by using the white keys only,
you are essentially playing in C maj./A min.

Absolutely. In fact, here's a video of me doing it. I'm using something
called a rootless 6/9 chord along with some melody and bass notes.



This was done in one take. It's not 'polished' of course but it's a good
example of what you can do using just one chord. smile


Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
#1469422 - 07/06/10 05:51 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: eweiss]  
Joined: Mar 2009
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Little_Blue_Engine Offline
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Ohio, US
Billy Joel once said he found that if you played lots of seventh chords and did it convincingly eventually someone in the room would say "Oh, he's playing my favorite song".LOL


I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.
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#1469430 - 07/06/10 06:16 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Little_Blue_Engine]  
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eweiss Offline
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Originally Posted by Little_Blue_Engine
Billy Joel once said he found that if you played lots of seventh chords and did it convincingly eventually someone in the room would say "Oh, he's playing my favorite song".LOL

Billy Joel. Who's that? smile


Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
#1469460 - 07/06/10 07:20 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Little_Blue_Engine]  
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eweiss Offline
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eweiss  Offline
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Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted by Little_Blue_Engine
Billy Joel once said he found that if you played lots of seventh chords and did it convincingly eventually someone in the room would say "Oh, he's playing my favorite song".LOL

Yes ... and Debussy once said: “How much has to be explored and discarded before reaching the naked flesh of feeling.”


Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com
#1469483 - 07/06/10 08:23 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Gyro]  
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Elissa Milne Offline
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Elissa Milne  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,337
Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted by Gyro
Using just the white keys, you can improvise all kinds of pop/jazz-type tunes instantly--
purely by ear without knowing any music theory--since by using the white keys only,
you are essentially playing in C maj./A min. As for whether you can actually reproduce
some specific pop tune this way, that would depend on a number of factors. But
who cares? Make you own music instead of just trying to play someone else's.

After you've gotten your feet wet with the white keys only, you can then start adding
a black key here and there for variety. And so forth. All purely by ear, with no reference
to any kind of theory.
You're already using a reference to theory in that the piano keyboard is set out to create the major modes when using only white notes. You simply cannot create any other kinds of tonal relationships than those using the modes of the major scale. Knowing or not knowing doesn't change the theoretical underpinnings of why the improvisation will work.

Now, if you really want to create easy, successful improvisations stick to the BLACK notes.


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Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
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#1469537 - 07/06/10 10:25 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: eweiss]  
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Kreisler Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
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Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted by eweiss
Originally Posted by Gyro
Using just the white keys, you can improvise all kinds of pop/jazz-type tunes instantly--


Absolutely. In fact, here's a video of me doing it. I'm using something
called a rootless 6/9 chord along with some melody and bass notes.


Yes and no. Yes, you can do a lot with white keys.

But no, you can't improvise "all kinds of pop/jazz-type" tunes. Bebop is pretty much off the table, gospel is near impossible. A true blues progression requires black keys (without at least one, you can't play a blues scale!)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#1469568 - 07/06/10 11:11 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Kreisler]  
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R0B Offline
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R0B  Offline
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This is very basic, but I have had beginners instantly create their own tunes, using just three, left hand chords (Cmaj7 Dm7 and Em7) and the notes of the C major scale.

With no knowledge of theory, some went on to add other chords, Fmaj7, Am7, etc, as they follow the same finger pattern, and others even added their own 'blue' notes.

http://www.roamstarmusic.com/EZ_Piano_Lesson_50.html


Rob
#1469593 - 07/06/10 11:45 PM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: R0B]  
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Elissa Milne Offline
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The point of the OP is that beginners can be taught specific pop songs within 6 hours, not that they will be improvising freely in an eweiss-like style after 6 hours.

I have often said that adult beginners say "I want to learn to play piano" but what they are thinking is "I want to learn to play Piano Man". For such a student this advertisement would be alluring.

eweiss - what you did was fine, but really not very interesting to someone else listening, but I imagine it was very enjoyable to do. The advertisement discussed in the OP is appealing to people who want to play something they recognise themselves and that their friends will recognise when they play it.


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
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#1469602 - 07/07/10 12:01 AM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: eweiss]  
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Wizard of Oz Offline
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Originally Posted by eweiss


This was done in one take. It's not 'polished' of course but it's a good
example of what you can do using just one chord. smile


eweiss, that sounded like a basic exercise and not really melodic. I've had my students come up with better stuff than that with a few improv lessons.

At least you're willing to put your playing out there for people to hear, unlike Gyro. I still don't know if that guy can play a lick of piano. And the dude's got 4000 posts!!

#1469607 - 07/07/10 12:07 AM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: Elissa Milne]  
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R0B Offline
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There are certain, simple pop songs, which could easily be taught to a beginner in six hours.

I recently taught a total beginner to piano, (he had been one of my guitar students for some time, and could already read the treble staff) to play 'Let it Be', in just two, 30 min sessions.

However, this was more down to him, than me. He worked hard on his own, in between lessons, and was determined to master it.

Generally, I would say that claims such as those stated in the OP's post, are simply conning an unsuspecting public.

Edited to add: On second thoughts, 6 hours could be 12 x 30min weekly lessons, so maybe it is not so far fetched.

Last edited by R0B; 07/07/10 12:16 AM.

Rob
#1469613 - 07/07/10 12:23 AM Re: How to teach beginners pop music songs within 6 hours? [Re: R0B]  
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Little_Blue_Engine Offline
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Ohio, US
Originally Posted by R0B

Edited to add: On second thoughts, 6 hours could be 12 x 30min weekly lessons, so maybe it is not so far fetched.
That could be the catch right there. 30 min. plus one week to practice, 30 more min. plus another week of practice...


I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.
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