Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum New PTG Convention Classes for 2011

Oh, I was wrong, alright. From what I know, nobody has yet to get them all right but I am not losing any sleep over it. For the moment, I'll go with what BDB said: You can't tell anything from a recording!

Your You Tune video also sounded quite good: a very clean, even and regular sound from the piano. Impeccable unisons!

Kent Swafford informed me that the very fine and popular steak house that was in walking distance from the hotel had burned down. However, Kansas City is famous for its steaks. It might be just as well for me to make a reservation in one of the fine hotel restaurants for perhaps an hour after your class is over or whichever time would suit you. We'll talk about that later.

Ryan,

If you can get Kamin to present a class next year, I would be happy to assist him with any language difficulties the way that Kent Swafford has helped Bernhard Stopper.

I'll put it on my list Bill! Sounds like a great idea.

Bernhard,
I'm placing your video in the reply window so it will be more visible. The Bach sounds so wonderful - thanks for sharing that. I'm now a Grigory Sokolov fan!

What a wonderful sound! Clean, open, clear, both melodic and harmonic, transparent... And the unisons give me goose-flesh. Compliments to the pianist and the tuner!

I'd give my tuning lever to attend your class, Bernhard, but a return ticket to the USA is just not on the cards at this stage. (Priorities, priorities.) Perhaps some day...

Wishing all participants a fruitful convention!

Delightful video Bernard...tuning and pianist! Ahh, maybe someday I can get unisons like that. When I was relying totally on your software for the unisons, they were very clean sounding...the trouble was my stability...after a concert pounding, they were off. Your software is very sensitive to minute changes in the pitch, which is obviously great for getting clean unisons. I have a tech question about your software, will PM you.

All the best for the convention!

Hope I can be of a different opinion without sounding condescending, because that is certainly not my intent.

Wonderful unisons - the very few ones long enough to be given feedback upon . This is not exactly sustained material, so they can't be given too much importance.

wonderful playing (Sokolov is ridiculously good, and a great link between the past and now)

Good overall balance, and a personal way of tuning. I like that very much. Go for it.

The mid-range is way too wide for me. The loose (=wide harmony in the mid-range does not give me a full-bodied feeling. There is a lot of potential power that don't really come out of the instrument.

Albeit, this is Bach, but then to me the mid-range looseness is even more prevailing.

This is as earnest as I can come across, and others may (and already have) been of vastly different opinions about the things I criticize. That's alright, and almost welcome if you ask me. Consensus is, generally, boring.

Stretch-vise, I still do not feel it together, more like botox treatment of old tissue. The genetic face expressions are there, but they are twisted into immovability.

Still, I really look forward to attending your class in KC!

Bernhard,

I encourage you to start a new thread about the OnlyPure method. I also encourage you to post as many examples of your tuning as possible. We can also discuss the similarities and differences there are to your approach, Alfredo's and mine. This thread is not really the right place for it but it does let everyone know you will be teaching in Kansas City and that is good.

Please don´t.
Class capacity is limited. I don´t travel that far to offer a pro and con party about different tuning styles. I want class places to be available for those who are able to recognize from the video what i have to offer and who want to learn it. Embarrassing enough that you miss that any criticism of class material in a thread, where the classes are to be presented, is way off-topic, offensive and annoying.

Bernhard,

I truly don't believe Patrick intended to imply that he would challenge or seek to debate your tuning style and methods during your presentation at the convention. Nor would I. I want to see and hear what you have to say at that time. I would have a problem as well with someone doing the same during my class!

We are fortunate to have PTG as an organization that values diversity of methods and opinions. The organization itself does not endorse any one over the other. It allows its members and guest participants to discuss and express their opinions through forums like the Journal and Pianotech.

PTG chooses the classes and instructors based upon the interest expressed by its members. Clearly, there is an interest in what you have to offer. You may have read and if not, should read and understand that any instructor is not allowed to denounce or disparage in any way the methods of other members. So, the goal of your class is to present what you have to offer as it is my goal to present what I have to offer.

Having said that, a forum such as this is the place to discuss what differences there may be in your approach as compared to others. It is not proper in doing so to say that your methods are "right" and others are "wrong" but rather what you consider to be the advantages of what you do compared to perhaps the shortcomings or disadvantages of any other method. That can be done in a respectful way, even if you strongly disagree with the views of others.

I can see from what Patrick has said that he does see certain qualities of what you do as being useful to him. He may very well want to learn to tune just as you do to be a part of his capabilities when he feels that it is appropriate. He has seen what I do as beneficial but does not always choose to use my methods. I certainly accept that. It has never occurred to me to say to him, "You should always tune the way I do.", for example. Indeed, I taught him to tune both the EBVT and a method for tuning ET. I teach many more people how to tune ET than I do the EBVT.

It is a fact that what I know how to do is the result of combining the knowledge and experience of many individuals. I see Patrick as the kind of technician and performer as well who is capable of understanding and implementing many diverse ideas. The result may be in the future, yet another kind of methodology that is unknown to any of us today.

Please don't push people away, invite them to learn what you have to offer!



There could be no better indication of the interest in your methodology than a standing room only audience!

Sorry Bill,
i am not at all willing to share my knowledge with someone who throws me statements about my work like this in my face:

" ...more like botox treatment of old tissue. The genetic face expressions are there, but they are twisted into immovability."

Time to take a few deep relaxing breaths perhaps?

RPD

Bernhard,

It is not like I go in and edit the PTG convention flyers. You're on a public forum that is not affiliated with the PTG, and the discussion should be open. If you don't like it in this thread, it can be run, like Bill suggests, in a dedicated thread. I think it would be of much interest to a lot of forum members.

What I wrote about my perception of your onlypure stretch is simply just the way I feel about it. It is not meant to be mean or condescending, it is meant to be honest input. You have a lot of others posters here who endorse that same stretch, so I don't see why this would be a general perception. Honest feedback of any kind will strengthen something good in the long run, just as with all kind of sincere critic (be that positive or negative).

My "botox-analogy" is a descriptive way of saying that I don't feel that cancelled-out beat rates and a rather wide mid-range are necessarily good things. As you feature the cancelled-out effect as one of the main asset of onlypure, I think nothing is lost from discussing these things - on the contrary, you should now have an opening to elaborate and deepen our understanding of what you do.

You write "I want class places to be available for those who are able to recognize from the video what i have to offer and who want to learn it." That is exactly the reason I will attend your class. I respect lecturers in the classroom, I respect their passion about their subject, and I always learn something from them.
As of a possible fear of me trying to trigger a debate with a lecturer in a PTG class (if that's what you fear) you could hardly find a person who is less intended to do so.

As for you trying to keep me out of your class and not being willing to share your knowledge with me, that could very well be your honest feelings about this (although I have a hard time figuring out why). But, just as Bill say, the true strength of the PTG Convention is the same strength that any vibrant society has - people of different opinions, where nobody necessarily carries the whole truth, but an open dialogue and awareness towards each other makes the sum become even greater than the parts.

I think it's a great mistake to try to impose some kind of censorship on the audience of a PTG lesson, neither can I possibly imagine that the PTG would censor participants on the preference of the lecturer alone. In fact, I rest assure that this will never happen in a country like the USA where diversity and personal opinion is highly encouraged.

Ryan Sowers might be able to share a more official PTG approach in this (or in a dedicated) thread.

Your botox analogy is to me a clear and calculated condescending offense. It stands for a qualification of yourself, thus I don´t ask moderators to remove it.

In a former post you appreciated an equal temperament of the form of pure fifths (Cordier), where the stretch goes about twice beyond standard ET, than the stretch used in my tuning example. Your signature line and PTG membership qualifies you well to be aware of that fact. This proves me well, that your statement is simply meant to be as a condescending offense, hidden behind a shady statement that is not to be meant as such.

Don´t come with paragraphs about censorship of PTG audience from my side:
I first kindly asked you, not to participate and just explained Bill truly why.

Since you introduced paragraphs, rather ask yourself, if such condescending statements from your side may violate PTG ethic code Nr. 1: "I will act honorably and in a professional manner"
http://www.ptg.org/userfiles/file/docs/2010/2010-06%20Bylaws.pdf

Ok, I give up. Since I can't write anything without you reading the worst into it, I will neither try to discuss with you nor attend your KC class.

The video trailer for my class (Tuning the Stopper OnlyPure Temperament Aurally) had a little flaw in one of the text windows, here is the new version:



Bernhard Stopper

Bernhard,

I ask you to drop this accusation, just as we all did when we thought what was intended as a serious and thoughtful contribution from you was instead intended as mocking sarcasm. Even though there were several of us that thought the same thing, there were others who said that those who thought so were overly defensive. One participant remarked at how he perceived that everyone who uses non-equal temperaments is defensive about the problems caused by their use. This instigated yet another question from me as to what problems did he perceive?

So, you see, now the coin has turned and I see that an innocent analogy was taken to imply a sarcastic remark upon the work you have done for so long and worked so hard at. I well know the feeling. I have encountered it for over 20 years now.

I believe that Patrick intended nothing of the kind. If we take "standard procedure" or perhaps the model ET which is used in the tuning exams (in which I will participate very soon again; the practice of what I consider to be a theoretical model which I would never actually use in practice) and depart from it in any way whatsoever, there will be effects as a consequence. Indeed, the theoretical model has its own effect and that is why I choose not to use it.

We all have ways of describing such effects and an opinion formed about them. I have read opinions from you about the effects of what I do, for example that I did not find to be flattering. However, that never diminished my opinion of what you do as a technician and the friendship we formed when I met you in Anaheim, California.

I attended your class and was impressed by what you do. I remember very little of your explanations but clearly remember the results. Somehow, when I was without the use of an ETD for a week or so last year, it occurred to me to balance an octave by playing simultaneously the octave, fourth and fifth below it and the note to be tuned and to find the "sweet spot" for the note to be tuned where the beat among all of these apparently is suppressed.

You immediately accused me of stealing your idea and calling it my own. I answered that I did not remember that you used such an idea or demonstrated it which I still do not. However, I can see how a fragmented idea seen somewhere at some time, can resurface in one's memory and can re-construct itself. Therefore, since that time, when I have shown this technique to others, I have said that this was apparently the idea that Bernhard Stopper uses.

You see, I say "apparently" because I am still not completely sure about it but I do want to attend your class and confirm that this idea is actually what you do, how far you take it, etc. I have learned techniques from many sources. When I use a technique learned directly from an individual, I am more than happy to name the person from whom I first learned it.

I had a similar experience with Steve Fairchild, for example. Long ago (more than 25 years, I think), Mr. Fairchild demonstrated with two SAT devices how he could balance a double octave with an octave-fifth. I and another fine technician from Canada observed what he was doing and we looked at each other in a puzzled way. We saw that each pitch he tuned was not stopping the ETD pattern on either of his devices. Neither of us understood at that time what he was doing.

Somehow, however, in my own experimentation when tuning aurally a year or two later, I found that I could balance an octave with an octave-fifth while using the sostenuto pedal. I continued to use this technique for several years. When I described it on Pianotech, I received much skepticism and what I perceived as sarcasm.

There were questions such as, how such octaves would score on a tuning exam. When I execute a master tuning for one of these exams in July, I will use that technique as I have done for many years. I have proved that it creates optimally tuned octaves to many other examiners, quite to their delight and amazement about how accurately the aural approach can be achieved with the very same results either aurally or electronically.

Some years after using the aural technique, I discovered one day that I could do the very same using an ETD. Only then, after discovering that, did it dawn upon me that this was, in fact what Mr. Fairchild had been demonstrating several years before. Therefore, I often attribute that discovery to him when writing about it.

Even Mr. Fairchild had a similar experience. He apparently discovered through his own experimentation, the very same well temperament proposed by Antonio Vallotti in the 18th Century. That was pointed out by Owen Jorgensen. (Thanks again to Professor Jorgensen for the fruits of all of his research). Professor Jorgensen, however did not accuse Mr, Fairchild of plagiarism. He saw that the idea itself had a simple logic to it that Mr, Fairchild had discovered quite of his own initiative.

So yes, perhaps Patrick could have chosen better words to describe what he feels are the effects of your techniques but knowing him personally, I know that he would be the very last person to attack another person's work with intended sarcasm. I did not take it as such as I am sure that many others did not.

So, I once again ask you to let go of what you perceived as sarcasm, for it was not intended that way. Patrick wants to attend your class to see what it is that you do. None of us on PWF who wish to attend your class have any intention of attempting to debate or denounce in any way what you do either in your class or outside of it.

We are all colleagues and we are all interested in the expansion of our knowledge and skills rather than holding on to narrow or close minded points of view.

See you in Kansas City!

As far as i remember, we cleared this already. You have been directly involved in a discussion here on PW about a year before your "occurence", guessing what the aural OnlyPure method could be, where exactly this technique was mentioned. You may have it simply forgotten, anyways i don´t understand why you introduce this again here, it´s rather off-topic in this context.

Anyway, see you in KC.

Bernhard,

Yes, if I had ever heard of that technique before, I had forgotten where I had heard it or that I had ever heard of it. I brought it up as an example of jumping to conclusions which is something that happens to all of us.

That particular technique is also an example of something which exists to be discovered and no doubt, many people have discovered it on their own or have read about it in other places. When someone saw me mention it here, she wrote this to me in a private message:



The only thing I would disagree with in the above quote is that it is useful for rough tuning. On the contrary, I find it useful for very precise fine tuning. I also find extensions of this technique suitable for the high treble and low bass.

So, let's agree that Patrick's choice of analogy was unfortunate and that you were initially insulted by it (as I can often be by a very similar remark) but that he intended no personal attack.

Thanks for moderating, Bill.
An intended offense could easily be forgiven from my side (including an invitation for my class), if he confirms that this was the case along with an apology. As i said, he appreciated formerly a temperament with a stretch about twice as strong as in my temperament, what in consequence would imply that his perception is not very reliable, an option i don´t believe he is really interested in.

Bernhard,

I apologize if I offended you by badly chosen words, but I cannot ever confirm that it was my intention... simply because it wasn't. At all.

Don't worry about your class, I won't be attending.



You can, of course, imply or believe anything you want. I don't know which post of mine you're talking about, maybe you can enlighten me? I don't know if my perception is reliable or not, but it is certainly honest as far as I myself can tell.

If my ears are screwed up, or if my perception or taste has changed (which is quite possible), then I would be very interested in having that pointed out.

See? Already a fluctuating mind... I wrote about a week ago that I wouldn't discuss this with you anymore, yet I'm writing this