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#1466635 - 07/01/10 07:18 PM Rach and his 2nd sonata  
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dolce sfogato Offline
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I can't bear to see/hear people use the abbreviation, he has a name, spell it, or don't, and let's stop putting his 3rd attempt to write a decent sonata at the top of the list, he managed a good one, the op. 19, an ok one, the op. 28 and a disastrous one, yes the op.36, and he knew it, why bother,play better music, it's not difficult to find it..


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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#1466645 - 07/01/10 07:30 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]  
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Was that some sort of stream-of-consciousness haiku?


"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

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#1466647 - 07/01/10 07:35 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Thracozaag]  
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dolce sfogato Offline
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probabely, but well-meant, I hate Rach instead of Rachmaninov, and I don't really appreciate his endeavours in his 36th opus, and I would like to see/hear people see wider horizons than this eternal competitionmonster that it has grown in to.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
#1466658 - 07/01/10 08:05 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]  
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I agree--gotten pretty sick of that piece in general.


"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/
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#1466704 - 07/01/10 10:01 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Thracozaag]  
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Pogorelich. Offline
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not somewhere over the rainbow
Oh get over it



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1466716 - 07/01/10 10:23 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]  
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Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Oh get over it


I agree with the OP, and I won't "get over it," even though you hold that ugly pistol to my head. I think it shows a complete lack of respect and a falsely assumed familiarity. As for familiarity or endearment, the man has been dead a number of years, I don't see how one can claim familiarity with him.

Perhaps such references are just laziness which, in itself, is a cultural trend, I fear.

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?

Regards,


BruceD
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#1466725 - 07/01/10 10:49 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]  
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I'm guilty as charged for using "Rach" and "Prok" all the time. I don't know why I don't similarly do "Chop" and "Motz" har har har...

It's just a cultural trend, however "lame" or "unprofessional" or "tacky". In emails with my close friends, I regularly refer to other friends by just the first letter of their first name. My boyfriend Jacob is "J", my best friend Vicky is "V", etc. This is simply something my friends and I have done since our high school days, and I have 1) met too many others who do the same, 2) noticed that my habits rub off on new friends and colleagues.

When I moved from Belize to Florida, I introduced myself as Daniel, as that's my name, but everyone would automatically call me Danny. When I moved from Florida to Minnesota, I again introduced myself as Daniel, but many (including my university professors) automatically shortened my name to Dan. I never corrected anyone, because it honestly does not bother me in the slightest.

I never feel "disrespected" when someone does this. Certainly though, I still have a problem referring to my professors on a first name basis, although many strongly suggested that I drop the "Dr. [Last Name]" or "Professor [Last Name]" and just refer to them by their first names.

I certainly know when I need to be formal, courteous, and respectful, and I don't feel I do any disservice to his dignity by referring to Rachmaninoff by "Rach" on an Internet forum.

As for his 2nd piano sonata, well, can't we all start a similar thread with some piece that just irks us, because it's overly played compared to [this other work] which is far superior! Maybe I should start one on "Chop's" Op 27 No 2 Nocturne. If I hear it again I might take that "ugly pistol" Angelina's holding to Bruce's head, and shoot myself with it.

smile

-Daniel


Currently working on:
-Poulenc Trois pièces
-Liszt Harmonies du Soir
-Bach/Brahms Chaconne for Left Hand
#1466730 - 07/01/10 10:56 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]  
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Originally Posted by BruceD

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?


Or "Pogo." laugh

Eh, people say Rach instead of Rachmaninoff because of the length of the name. On a similar note, I heard Read Gainsford play Rachmaninoff's second piano sonata, and it was wonderful!

#1466731 - 07/01/10 10:58 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Didn't "Rach craze" all start with the movie "Shine," or was it used long before that?

Regards,


BruceD
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#1466733 - 07/01/10 11:00 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]  
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I'm not sure, but I must concede that referring to the concertos as Rocky I through IV makes me cringe!

-Daniel


Currently working on:
-Poulenc Trois pièces
-Liszt Harmonies du Soir
-Bach/Brahms Chaconne for Left Hand
#1466740 - 07/01/10 11:23 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]  
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Didn't "Rach craze" all start with the movie "Shine," or was it used long before that?


I think it started with the advent of the Internet. It's hard to imagine a world where we didn't have to deal with such inane abbreviations!

#1466762 - 07/02/10 12:22 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jeffreyjones]  
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I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.

His best work in larger forms are, by far, the 2nd concerto and cello sonata.

I find both sets of variations unnecessarily homogenous, the sonatas and 3rd concerto wallow a bit too much in a texture that seems fascinated with a hundred shades of grey, and the moments musicaux show promise, but lack some maturity. Op. 23 and Op. 33 do contain some wonderful music, but for me, I think every single piece in Op. 32 and Op. 39 is a revelation.

And just to annoy Stores, I'll even go so far as to say I'd rather listen to Tchaikovsky Op. 37 than either of the Rachmaninoff sonatas. wink


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1466766 - 07/02/10 12:31 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]  
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Originally Posted by Kreisler

His best work in larger forms are, by far, the 2nd concerto and cello sonata.

I agree (the 2nd concerto is a far more spontaneous work than the 3rd), but IMO you quite forgot the Paganini Rhapsody. You did, didn't you?

But the Tchaikovsky Op. 37? IMO (again) that strikes me as a very jaded opinion.


Jason
#1466773 - 07/02/10 12:41 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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I don't know about all 'yall, but I refer to Rachmaninov by his real name:

Paxmaninhub! :-)


#1466777 - 07/02/10 01:09 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]  
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.


Rachmaninoff's masterwork is the Vespers, Op. 37. If you don't believe me, then it's probably because you haven't heard it live. It is astonishing.

#1466874 - 07/02/10 07:24 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jeffreyjones]  
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Originally Posted by BruceD
Didn't "Rach craze" all start with the movie "Shine," or was it used long before that?


I think it started with the advent of the Internet. It's hard to imagine a world where we didn't have to deal with such inane abbreviations!
People called the Rachmaninov 3rd PC the Rach 3 at least as far back as the 1960's, maybe because Rock music was popular then. I think some people use abbreviations to imply some great familiarity with a piece or composer. Just the way some refer to Horowitz as Volodya.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/02/10 07:28 AM.
#1466896 - 07/02/10 08:31 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]  
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Oh get over it


I agree with the OP, and I won't "get over it," even though you hold that ugly pistol to my head. I think it shows a complete lack of respect and a falsely assumed familiarity. As for familiarity or endearment, the man has been dead a number of years, I don't see how one can claim familiarity with him.

Perhaps such references are just laziness which, in itself, is a cultural trend, I fear.

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?

Regards,
For Christ's sake. Doesn't the fact that Rachmaninoff is her favourite composer and she herself refers to him as 'Rach' make it blindingly clear to you that actually it doesn't imply a lack of respect? Oh, and newsflash - yes, people will frequently assume their abbreviated surname as a nickname. I suppose this means their friends don't respect them.

#1466950 - 07/02/10 10:25 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jeffreyjones]  
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones

Rachmaninoff's masterwork is the Vespers, Op. 37. If you don't believe me, then it's probably because you haven't heard it live. It is astonishing.

You're not alone in that opinion, and it is also a work loved by people who otherwise have no interest in Rachmaninov's music . I have two very contrasting recordings: a very typical 'Russian-sounding' St. Petersburg Choir, but also a very fine and cultivated performance by King's College Choir in Cambridge. I wouldn't be without either.


Jason
#1466998 - 07/02/10 11:55 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]  
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Originally Posted by FunkyLlama
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Oh get over it


I agree with the OP, and I won't "get over it," even though you hold that ugly pistol to my head. I think it shows a complete lack of respect and a falsely assumed familiarity. As for familiarity or endearment, the man has been dead a number of years, I don't see how one can claim familiarity with him.

Perhaps such references are just laziness which, in itself, is a cultural trend, I fear.

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?

Regards,
For Christ's sake. Doesn't the fact that Rachmaninoff is her favourite composer and she herself refers to him as 'Rach' make it blindingly clear to you that actually it doesn't imply a lack of respect? Oh, and newsflash - yes, people will frequently assume their abbreviated surname as a nickname. I suppose this means their friends don't respect them.


Disagree with my old-fashioned and/or misguided sense of formality if you will, but please keep profanity out of the discussion.


BruceD
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#1467104 - 07/02/10 03:58 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jeffreyjones]  
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Originally Posted by Kreisler
I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.


Rachmaninoff's masterwork is the Vespers, Op. 37. If you don't believe me, then it's probably because you haven't heard it live. It is astonishing.


Agreed! I was only speaking of the piano music. I was in the concert chorale in college and we sang 4 or 5 of the vespers (in Russian!) and it was a great experience. They even let me conduct a rehearsal or two, it was wonderful! A friend of mine was is also the tenor soloist for Svete Tikhyi - O Serene Light (#4) on Shaw's recording. (That and the famous Bogoroditsye Devo, Raduisya are my favorites of the set.)


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
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#1467110 - 07/02/10 04:20 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]  
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
[...]
Agreed! I was only speaking of the piano music. I was in the concert chorale in college and we sang 4 or 5 of the vespers (in Russian!) and it was a great experience. They even let me conduct a rehearsal or two, it was wonderful! A friend of mine was is also the tenor soloist for Svete Tikhyi - O Serene Light (#4) on Shaw's recording. (That and the famous Bogoroditsye Devo, Raduisya are my favorites of the set.)


I have that recording; I have admired Dent's singing - all too brief - on that track. Fortunately, he also sings on track 5 (Nyne Otpushchayeshi (Now Let Thy Servant Depart)) and on track 9 (BlagoslovenYesi, Gospodi (Blessed Art Thou, O Lord)) What a beautiful voice, and so suited to this writing.

A local choir recently performed the Vespers - in Russian - and what intrigued me about their performance was the 'Slavic' quality of the tone they produced. (I call it 'Slavic' but what do I know about choral tone?) Not the sweet tones of most European choirs or the sometimes 'purer' tones of English choral groups with boy sopranos but a rather, harder, brassy, at times almost nasal, quality to their tone. I emailed one of the members to ask how the director succeeded in getting that tonal quality from these Canadian singers, but she never responded.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
#1467117 - 07/02/10 04:44 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]  
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Originally Posted by Kreisler
I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.


Rachmaninoff's masterwork is the Vespers, Op. 37. If you don't believe me, then it's probably because you haven't heard it live. It is astonishing.


Agreed! I was only speaking of the piano music. I was in the concert chorale in college and we sang 4 or 5 of the vespers (in Russian!) and it was a great experience. They even let me conduct a rehearsal or two, it was wonderful! A friend of mine was is also the tenor soloist for Svete Tikhyi - O Serene Light (#4) on Shaw's recording. (That and the famous Bogoroditsye Devo, Raduisya are my favorites of the set.)


I worked with a local choir in rehearsal for the Vespers.. not through the entire rehearsal period, sadly, but for enough to become completely smitten with the piece. The director was Russian and she really takes the music to heart..

#1467125 - 07/02/10 05:25 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]  
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not somewhere over the rainbow
Bruce, thanks so much for the kind words. Misinformed and unfamiliar? That's what you think I am? Rachmaninoff happens to be my absolute favourite composer. Disrespect? I am planning to do my dma thesis on rach. (yes I'm spiteful. Your post saddened me).

I am usually on my iPhone when here, taking breaks from my practicing and taking advantge of the wifi at my school. It's annoying as it is to type on it, and heck people use short names for a lot of things. So sorry for being such a criminal, it doesn't mean I'm some stupid 20 year old just because sometimes I shorten a name of a composer I happen to love and play more than any other. Actually why am I even making excuses for myself? I've heard lots of people call him rach (even though I don't talk like that in real life) including teachers.

God you people really need to stop being so uptight sometimes.

As for the original post, disasterous sonata? Which planet are you from? It's fine to say you prefer one more than the other but seriously?




"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1467136 - 07/02/10 05:54 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]  
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by FunkyLlama
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Oh get over it


I agree with the OP, and I won't "get over it," even though you hold that ugly pistol to my head. I think it shows a complete lack of respect and a falsely assumed familiarity. As for familiarity or endearment, the man has been dead a number of years, I don't see how one can claim familiarity with him.

Perhaps such references are just laziness which, in itself, is a cultural trend, I fear.

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?

Regards,
For Christ's sake. Doesn't the fact that Rachmaninoff is her favourite composer and she herself refers to him as 'Rach' make it blindingly clear to you that actually it doesn't imply a lack of respect? Oh, and newsflash - yes, people will frequently assume their abbreviated surname as a nickname. I suppose this means their friends don't respect them.


Disagree with my old-fashioned and/or misguided sense of formality if you will, but please keep profanity out of the discussion.
As Stephen Fry has said on the issue of offence, 'so *** what?' It's the internet, and there will be swearing. If you don't like it, rather than trying to bring discourse to a halt, simply don't take part in the first place. You are the problem here, not me.

Last edited by Kreisler; 07/02/10 06:03 PM. Reason: profanity removed
#1467140 - 07/02/10 06:08 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]  
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Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Bruce, thanks so much for the kind words. Misinformed and unfamiliar? That's what you think I am? Rachmaninoff happens to be my absolute favourite composer. Disrespect? I am planning to do my dma thesis on rach. (yes I'm spiteful. Your post saddened me).

I am usually on my iPhone when here, taking breaks from my practicing and taking advantge of the wifi at my school. It's annoying as it is to type on it, and heck people use short names for a lot of things. So sorry for being such a criminal, it doesn't mean I'm some stupid 20 year old just because sometimes I shorten a name of a composer I happen to love and play more than any other. Actually why am I even making excuses for myself? I've heard lots of people call him rach (even though I don't talk like that in real life) including teachers.

God you people really need to stop being so uptight sometimes.

As for the original post, disasterous sonata? Which planet are you from? It's fine to say you prefer one more than the other but seriously?

from Uranus, and up here we don't like Rachmaninov's 2nd sonata, we prefer his 1st, and always spell his name as it is, abbreviations will send you to a planet called 'Earth', brrr


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
#1467148 - 07/02/10 06:31 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]  
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Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Bruce, thanks so much for the kind words. Misinformed and unfamiliar? That's what you think I am? Rachmaninoff happens to be my absolute favourite composer. Disrespect? I am planning to do my dma thesis on rach. (yes I'm spiteful. Your post saddened me).


Every composer has his champion and his critics. I don't think anyone would begrudge you a passion for the music you love. I may be unmoved by the Chopin Variations, but that doesn't mean the work doesn't deserve a devotee.

I'm on record as being unimpressed with the 2nd sonata, but about 10 years ago, a friend of mine performed it in studio class. It was one of the most memorable performances of any piece I have ever witnessed. On that day, for those 20 minutes, it was the greatest piece of piano music ever written, and he the greatest artist I'd ever heard.

Every piece that's capable of moving even a single listener deserves that chance. To have a champion and a convert, however fleeting the moment may be.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#1467152 - 07/02/10 06:37 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]  
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just be glad to have heard it performed by a great artist, and think: "I just heard a beautiful rendition of the second Sonata of Sergei Rachmaninov by soandso" instead of using the condescending ab.s that reduce it to the level that the users of those ab.s have..


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
#1467155 - 07/02/10 06:44 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]  
Joined: Apr 2009
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FunkyLlama Offline
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FunkyLlama  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 359
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
just be glad to have heard it performed by a great artist, and think: "I just heard a beautiful rendition of the second Sonata of Sergei Rachmaninov by soandso" instead of using the condescending ab.s that reduce it to the level that the users of those ab.s have..
Condescending? To whom? I'm sure Rach himself doesn't mind, what with being dead and all.

Last edited by FunkyLlama; 07/02/10 06:45 PM.
#1467157 - 07/02/10 06:45 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]  
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BruceD Offline
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BruceD  Offline

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Posts: 20,409
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Bruce, thanks so much for the kind words. Misinformed and unfamiliar? That's what you think I am? Rachmaninoff happens to be my absolute favourite composer. Disrespect? I am planning to do my dma thesis on rach. (yes I'm spiteful. Your post saddened me).
[..]


Misinformed? I'm not sure what "misinformed" as opposed to "uninformed" means, but no, I don't think so, nor do I think I said so; you appear to be one of the more musically informed contributors on this site. I know you love Rachamninoff's music; there's no doubt in my mind about that.

As for the Rach vs. Rachmaninoff; I come from a generation where a person's family name is one of his points of pride, and that's why I dislike the "pop culture" trend of abbreviating a surname and why I think it shows a lack of consideration.

I guess I have to move with the times and, as one other poster so tactfully and so generously observed, I should just keep my mouth shut!

No offense, but apologies extended.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#1467169 - 07/02/10 07:04 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]  
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dolce sfogato Offline
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dolce sfogato  Offline
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Originally Posted by FunkyLlama
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
just be glad to have heard it performed by a great artist, and think: "I just heard a beautiful rendition of the second Sonata of Sergei Rachmaninov by soandso" instead of using the condescending ab.s that reduce it to the level that the users of those ab.s have..
Condescending? To whom? I'm sure Rach himself doesn't mind, what with being dead and all.
just stop it, and spell his name, quite a challenge for some people...


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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