Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Looking for comments (Beethoven Sonata Op. 49 No. 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDu_bx7Hqeg

My son played it in a recital a coulple months ago. Since we don't do grade exam, could you give him some suggestions like you are a judge at an exam?

How do you tell if a piece is too difficult for a student? Thanks!

Well, your son did a very respectable job. Would that some of my students take Beethoven so seriously! Congratulations to you and your son.

It's difficult to comment too much on subtleties, because camcorders tend to compress sound greatly; then there's that annoying buzz and finally, the piano needs tuning.

Two technical things - I like my students to sit a bit more forward on the bench, and the bench to be a bit higher. You'll note that his elbow is below the playing surface of the keys. He's almost reaching for the keys, which impedes polished playing.

As you asked for criticism, let me note that he is relies a bit too much on the pedal for legato, and his left hand often is a bit heavy. Now, these are fine points, which teachers work to tweak, and I'm guessing your son's teacher has been working on as well.

If this were a master class, we might begin by shaping the opening phrase. And then finding direction for the remainder of the overall phrase (1st four measures), then we might look to do something a bit different for the next four, when the idea repeats. I could go on, but I haven't the time to go through measure by measure.

Rather, I'd like to suggest that, now that your son has this piece well in hand, you talk with your teacher about having him play this for a master class. I routinely have my advancing students play take a 30 min master class each year, where they play one piece and the master teacher comments and works with the student. Much of what they do with the student is an exact repeat of what I've covered, but because they are saying it in a different way, or approaching it differently, or just because the student is honed in very intently, many of the ideas "take hold."

I hope this helps you and your son.

John

How long has he been playing this piece for? I tend to like better the other three pieces he's done.

I agree with John--your son is sitting too low. If he can't get an adjustable bench, then he might need a seat cushion.

First movement is brisk and secure. L.H. triplets could be softer. Mild rushing at times. I prefer a little more dynamic shading than what Beethoven notated.

For my taste, the second movement is too slow. This felt like a "work in progress." Also, his arm movement was a little excessive and broke up longer melodic lines into shorter ones.

The piece definitely does not seem too hard for your son. He just needs to work on it more, particularly the second movement.

You guys are great. We have adjustable bench at home so it's not a problem for his practices. For lessons, I usually bring our foam floor mat and use it as seat cushion so my son can sit higher. I will remind my son to use seat cushion in the future recitals. The teacher asks for adjustable bench several times already, but I guess the school owner doesn't want to spend the extra money. I feel my son tends to move his elbows away from the body in the recitals, maybe he is trying to raise his elbows because the seat is too low.

John, Is it a good idea to talk with teacher about master class with another teacher(if teacher doesn't mention it first)? Doesn't it sound like you don't trust your teacher and want to find a master (more advanced) teacher? How does a master class work? Is it just like a regular lesson with a master teacher?

Candywoman, It took about 2 months for 1st mov and 1 month for the 2nd mov. What other 3 pieces are you referring to?

AZN, Since he learnt 1st mov first, it makes sense he is more comfortable playing it. Do you usually teach both fast and slow movements to kids? Although the slow movement is easier technically, I feel it's harder to play musically. Also the L.H. on the start of the 2nd mov (also throughout the piece), it's hard to play legato and control the sound for small hand. You can see my son need to move his L.H. left and right just to reach those notes.

Well, since you asking advice on a piano teachers website, it sounds like you already don't trust your child's teacher.

I wouldn't rush to that conclusion. First off, curiosity often is best satisfied by hearing a wide selection of views. Secondly, a disinterested observer sometimes sees things that people who have been working with each other on a regular basis may miss. This is, after all, one of the virtues of attending master classes. Disinterested third parties also are safer in some ways, since personality and ego aren't big issues.

There is no need to suggest that distrust is at work. Doing so may start fights or put people off asking questions.

Your son's teacher may be hesitant to mention it for several reasons; it's also possible that they might not be comfortable with the concept, but if you present it properly, I'm sure you could remove the "threat" aspect. It's also entirely possible that they've just never really thought about it and might actually welcome the opportunity to use master teachers/classes for their students.

Although many master teachers are, in fact, master teachers, many are just another set of ears and eyes.

I still want to know why she isn't having these conversations with the child's teacher. If the parents of any of my students have questions, I would hope they would ask me.

I used to think like that, but I'm starting to realize that there are too many piano teachers out there and parents do have the right to a second (or third, fourth, fifth) opinion.

No, I'd never assign both movement to this sonata. Personally, I'm getting tired of the first movement, anyway, so for next year I'm having a student do the second movement only.

The second movement has quite a bit of octave reach. Can your son reach an octave without overstretching?

I agree that the parents have that right, but I think they need to start by asking the teacher the questions they have. If they feel like they need more answers after that, then seek outside advice. This is about open communication.

I agree that in a perfect world the OP wouldn't feel any qualms about being very upfront and asking the teacher if perhaps they made a mistake by assigning a piece that is too difficult for the student to master or perhaps they shouldn't have had him play that particular piece in a recital before it was up to speed (can you start seeing where things could start getting a bit touchy?). I won't even go into potential cultural conflicts regarding the status of teachers and what actions are considered respectful. Then again I guess in a perfect world the teacher would never assign a piece that's too advanced so it'd be a non issue

From a parents perspective (esp one who is not a musician/pianist), it's often difficult to gauge these things and that's why a forum like this really helps. It gives you a relatively safe sounding board to bounce these types of questions off of (no pun intended). I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask something like this here to get a sense for whether or not one is completely out in left field or if perhaps their thinking/concerns is/are reasonable.

It can be quite startling to the uninitiated just how many different opinions there are about this particular subject (and really almost anything related to playing). Coming from a situation where I knew nothing and was completely dependent on the teacher, to now having access to all sorts of resources (this forum, other teachers, other pianists, etc), I know that regardless of our kids teachers best intentions, having a broader base of knowledge is far better for the student (assuming you use that knowledge wisely of course )

John,
I am curious how much details the master teacher could cover in 30 min?

I'm sure John will have an insightful answer for you, but I did want to say, having sat through quite a few masterclasses, that you should keep a couple of, related, things in mind. Don't forget the student when you're looking at the content and duration of something like a masterclass. Some "masters" are founts of very valuable information, but unless you're taking notes, recording, or your kiddo has a photographic memory, a lot of that stuff can just drop on the floor. So that said, at the very least take notes. If they allow for it, record the session. This way the student can refer to it, and ideally, the student and the primary teacher can go over the comments (video or notes).

What I meant is do you usually ask students to learn all movements or mostly 1st or 3rd movement? I feel usually 2nd movement is easier but harder to play musically. And I heard many students would just learn 1 movement, then will move on to the next sonata.

My son can't play octave yet, that's why he needs to move L.H. left and right to play B-B-B. It will be much easier to play it legato and make good sound if he doesn't need to change hand position.

Minniemay,
bitWrangler pretty much answered your question for me. Another thing is for parents like us who don't know piano at all, we don't even know if there are questions we should ask our teachers.
I have seen many times here that teachers complain about the transfer students who have serious problems. Maybe their former teachers tried to correct it, but it could be the students/parents not aware of those problems.
Like I said in the original post, I am looking feedbacks from teachers like you would get from a grade exam. I guess I do want to know that if my son develop some bad habit and generally if he did OK for this piece.

Obviously, not a lot, but still, a lot. Master classes in general are when students already know the music well and perform it from memory. So they don't have to cover the basics. Also, if I go through the Exposition with a student, then one hopes that the student will apply that to the Development and Recapitulation (we're discussing sonatas here). My more advanced students do 45 min or 60 min master classes. But often cover more repertoire.

What I'm saying is that the masterclass instructor is giving the students new ideas and a fresh outlook on the music. All it took was one of us to comment on your son's bench and sitting position at the piano. I'll bet this is never a problem for him again, but it took a second set of eyes, and of course, it helps when you understand the reason why.

The comments by BW on recording the class is invaluable. I set up a camcorder and record each masterclass; I keep a copy and give the student a copy. And we go through it together!

I meant the other three youtube videos you uploaded.

I don't think a couple of months is anywhere near enough to absorb a piece musically, and so I agree with the others that this is a work in progress.

I don't object to the poster wanting information but I don't like the idea of us giving him too much information for free. That's why adjudicators, who give these types of assessments, are worth every penny and then some. Or other piano teachers who are getting paid to offer a second opinion.

I seldom assign an entire sonata or sonatina, unless it's for a competition or something. It's usually one movement and move on. I like to start with 3rd movements (rondo form) because they are more repetitive and easier to learn.

If your son can't reach an octave, then he should learn more Bach (2-part stuff). Don't overstretch.