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Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
ChrisA #1462379 06/24/10 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisA

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Wow, Dewster is really taking a beating here. I gotta say I agree with him though. There really is no reason to have short loop times and stretched samples in today's DPs at any price. But that's the way the consumer market works.


Two things are going on here. The first is that buyers, despite saying they want various features shop by price. In the end it's the price.

The second is that I think Dewster is only measuring what he can easly measure and misses the subtle things that determine sound. Does looping really matter. In the music you play how many times do you hold a note for over four seconds. At nominal 120 BPS tempo in 4/4 time a whole note is 2 seconds. the big majority of the bnotes you play never get into the loopped part of the sample. Most that do are part of left hand chords with right hand notes played over them. How often do you play a single note alone for several seconds? Looping may not metter for most music once the non-loopped sample is more then a whole note long at your playing tempo.

Same with stretching, I've notice a timbre change but it too is rare. I have to be playing just the "right" run of a single line of notes.

I think what matters most is the overall tone of the notes, do they sound harsh or ring. Are they to bright or not bright enough.

Same with measuring a key's static weight by placing coins on a white key until it moves down. We do this because it is easy to measure but static weight does not describe the feel of a key action.


Hey, some people say Im overly picky. I just know what I want. laugh And I was never complaining about having looping. I just think it is unnecessary now due to the inexpensiveness of large amounts of memory these days.

I should probably stop whining and just be happy with my sub $650 piano and not expect it to sound as good as even a $3000 upright. For the price, its alot of piano!

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Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
BazC #1462390 06/24/10 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BazC
No he's not taking a beating, he's just being disagreed with - that's what happens when you present extreme views on a public forum.

For the record, on this end it does feel like something of a beating. And are my views really so extreme that I deserve public mistreatment?

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
dewster #1462420 06/24/10 01:44 PM
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I think it's OK to express how you feel (like a beating) because that's your personal feeling that you should be able to freely express. However, saying that you're being publicly mistreated is not OK because implies malicious intents by others toward you, while all they've been doing is just expressing their disagreements with you. I've seen strong opinions posted so far, but I haven't seen anything malicious that might have degraded the discussion into name-calling or mud-slinging, at least to a level where it deserves to be called "public mistreatment".

I think your view on the looping is not extreme if you're talking about a particular instrument where it has really short sample times and looping is really done poorly and can really be audibly detected by almost everyone, and samples are severely stretched. But I think your view becomes extreme and heavily biased when you stereotype any DP that has looping as unacceptable regardless of how long the sample lengths are or how well the looping is done, even if there's no visible and audible stretching at all.

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
dewster #1462423 06/24/10 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
For the record, on this end it does feel like something of a beating. And are my views really so extreme that I deserve public mistreatment?


How exactly have you been mistreated?


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Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
Volusiano #1462436 06/24/10 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Volusiano
You should start a thread over at the Piano Forum to detail your search for an acoustic. ......


Oh I definately will once I get some of the basics sorted out on my end. I am trying to not pay interest anymore unless absolutely necessary (mortgage etc), so I will either have to sell some stuff off and buy in the lower end of what I'm looking at or I can enjoy my roland for a few years and buy in the upper end of what I'm looking at then. Do I have the maturity to not get into paying interest for something that is a luxury ? We'll see laugh

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
Art A. #1462455 06/24/10 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Art A.
Originally Posted by Volusiano
You should start a thread over at the Piano Forum to detail your search for an acoustic. ......


Oh I definately will once I get some of the basics sorted out on my end. I am trying to not pay interest anymore unless absolutely necessary (mortgage etc), so I will either have to sell some stuff off and buy in the lower end of what I'm looking at or I can enjoy my roland for a few years and buy in the upper end of what I'm looking at then. Do I have the maturity to not get into paying interest for something that is a luxury ? We'll see laugh


Are these new pianos you are talking about? Have you considered used pianos?? I would hope so as you can find amazing deals.

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
Volusiano #1462457 06/24/10 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Volusiano
However, saying that you're being publicly mistreated is not OK because implies malicious intents by others toward you, while all they've been doing is just expressing their disagreements with you. I've seen strong opinions posted so far, but I haven't seen anything malicious that might have degraded the discussion into name-calling or mud-slinging, at least to a level where it deserves to be called "public mistreatment".

You're right, I withdraw my "public mistreatment" statement.

I think I just need to invest in some thicker skin.

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
dewster #1462504 06/24/10 04:55 PM
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BazC and ChrisA make some excellent points above.

One thing I would like to clarify however:

Originally Posted by BazC
...Kawai sample every key apparently, no stretching at all. So their DPs should sound vastly better than Yamaha's or Roland's...


It should be noted that most - if not all - modern Roland DPs also employ 88-key piano sampling.

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Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
Kawai James #1462507 06/24/10 05:01 PM
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And there's little to say that 88-note sampling is better than fewer-note sampling. Indeed, by skipping some samples, they can avoid the dreaded treble break.

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
MacMacMac #1462523 06/24/10 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
And there's little to say that 88-note sampling is better than fewer-note sampling.

Indeed. Though absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Indeed, by skipping some samples, they can avoid the dreaded treble break.

What, pray tell, is "the dreaded treble break"?


Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
dewster #1462542 06/24/10 06:31 PM
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Dewster:

I found this thread which I think describes the phenomenon:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1126105/Tenor%20break.html

I don't know if this is close but could this explain the four stretched notes that you found in the recent ca-63/cn-33 samples? Maybe smoothing over some inconsistencies caused by such breaks?

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
Dave Horne #1462605 06/24/10 08:43 PM
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of course if there is any single opportunity of comfortably owning an acoustic piano (taking into account of the weight, mobility, etc), I would like to have one. Currently I could only afford to have a digital one (I move quite often). One advantage of a DP besides mobility is easy-recording and various tones.

If you can afford to have both, that's terrific.


Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
Art A. #1462612 06/24/10 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Art A.
I am trying to not pay interest anymore unless absolutely necessary (mortgage etc), so I will either have to sell some stuff off and buy in the lower end of what I'm looking at or I can enjoy my roland for a few years and buy in the upper end of what I'm looking at then.


Originally Posted by JoeyIsFunny

Are these new pianos you are talking about? Have you considered used pianos?? I would hope so as you can find amazing deals.

+1

When buying used, you're substituting time for money. It may help to regard auditioning pianos as an adventure which will end with your getting a super deal on a piano that you really want.

The best used piano money that you can spend is that spent for a prepurchase inspection by an experienced tech who has no affiliation with the seller. Bring in the tech when you've found a piano that you think you want to buy.

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
FogVilleLad #1462705 06/25/10 01:23 AM
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Its funny was just 8 hours ago or whatever I that posted I'm in no rush and will take the time to choose wisely and time things in a way to not pay interest on my purchase.

Yet now I've become hyper aware of everything. Practicing at home tonight was like walking into a restaurant and smelling bleach from freshly washed floors. You lose your appetite so quickly. I think I'll start that thread in the other section now.

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
Kawai James #1462722 06/25/10 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
It should be noted that most - if not all - modern Roland DPs also employ 88-key piano sampling.


I wasn't aware of that thanks for the info James!


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Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
BazC #1462732 06/25/10 03:49 AM
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"What, pray tell, is "the dreaded treble break"?"

The top part of the piano is stringed with 3 parallel all steel strings without copper. But as tones get lower the strings need to get longer. And at some point they don't fit anymore. At that point they switch to steel with copper around it (instead of making the strings longer). Then a few notes lower they don't have the space to put in 3 of these anymore and they switch to 2 and then only 1 string with copper.

This messing with the strings causes artefacts in the tone. And that artefact is called the treble break


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Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
superwang #1462779 06/25/10 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by superwang
Dewster:

I found this thread which I think describes the phenomenon:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1126105/Tenor%20break.html

I don't know if this is close but could this explain the four stretched notes that you found in the recent ca-63/cn-33 samples? Maybe smoothing over some inconsistencies caused by such breaks?

That's a great thread superwang, thanks! And thanks for the concise explanation wouter79! I see over on that thread they call it the "tenor break" which makes more sense as it is a break between the bass strings and the ones above it.

The tenor break on our Young Chang happens over the interval [A#2,B2].

The stretch groups on the Kawai are [A6,A#6] and [B6,C7,C#7,D7] or 4 octaves higher.

So that's out as a possible explanation for the stretching.

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
dewster #1462946 06/25/10 02:32 PM
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Yes the usual location is around A2. It often also coincides with a switch from the bass bridge to the treble bridge, adding extra issues with this break.



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Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
wouter79 #1463117 06/25/10 08:46 PM
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I was just looking at vids on youtube searching roland 307, my digital piano and I found this vid where at 57 seconds you can hear the one nuance of the roland 307 that is driving my bonkers. You can hear the ring, weeweeweeeweeewee. If a cheesy digital cam managed to capture it and still showed up on a compressed youtube video think of how it sounds in real life when you are playing for an hour. weeeweeeweeweeweewee... arrghhhhhh!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpsCTAzBKGI

Re: Going to start shopping for an acoustic piano
Art A. #1463162 06/25/10 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Art A.
I was just looking at vids on youtube searching roland 307, my digital piano and I found this vid where at 57 seconds you can hear the one nuance of the roland 307 that is driving my bonkers. You can hear the ring, weeweeweeeweeewee. If a cheesy digital cam managed to capture it and still showed up on a compressed youtube video think of how it sounds in real life when you are playing for an hour. weeeweeeweeweeweewee... arrghhhhhh!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpsCTAzBKGI


I didnt notice anything unpleasant or unusual... sounds like a pretty good piano sustain sound to me?? But Im a newb haha

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