2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
44 members (chopinetto, David Lai, David B, Alan F, DSC, EPW, CharlesXX, bwv872, 16 invisible), 389 guests, and 425 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 19 20
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #1461653 06/23/10 12:57 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,467
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,467
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Do you think professional pianists are in general highly intelligent or even super intelligent?
[...]


How is it possible to answer this question "intelligently"?

One would have to know a great number of professional pianists - or, from having read, know about the intellect of a great number of professional pianists - to answer one way or another. For every "intelligent" professional pianist there may well be his/her opposite in intelligence; and many a fine, professional pianist may know nothing about anything else. Since the question can't be answered, really, what is the point of the question?

The only possible answer : "Some are, some aren't."

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
alexb #1461659 06/23/10 01:04 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Originally Posted by burma
Any good artist is intelligent. A great one, highly intelligent. I personally have yet to see any exceptions - whether it's in music or any other art form.
Yes but every professional pianist is not a good artist.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #1461750 06/23/10 03:07 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 38
C
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I never said that IQ or any of the factors I mentioned were the "best" tests for intelligence or that interpersonal skils aren't useful. I said for the thread I created I wanted the particular kinds of intelligence I mentioned to be the ones discussed in their realtion to professional pianists. This thread is not supposed to be about what kinds of people one wants to have a conversation with.
*sigh* I was saying that being able to have a conversation with someone is one way I measure intelligence. And I'm sorry if that's not what the thread was about, but your original post didn't do a good job of explaining WHAT exactly this thread is about, hence the 3 pages of discussion.

Your post proves my point that there's no way to determine whether a pianist is more intelligent than others or not, because the measures of intelligence are completely subjective. I agree with BruceD, whats even the point of asking the question if there's really no way to determine the answer?


Currently working on:
Bach: Invention 8 in F major
Chopin: Prelude No. 6 in b minor
Haydn: Sonata in Dmaj, Hob XVIII/DI
Chopin: Etude op 10/2, only for finger exercise.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
BruceD #1461776 06/23/10 03:39 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,409
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,409
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Do you think professional pianists are in general highly intelligent or even super intelligent?
[...]


How is it possible to answer this question "intelligently"?

One would have to know a great number of professional pianists - or, from having read, know about the intellect of a great number of professional pianists - to answer one way or another. For every "intelligent" professional pianist there may well be his/her opposite in intelligence; and many a fine, professional pianist may know nothing about anything else. Since the question can't be answered, really, what is the point of the question?

The only possible answer : "Some are, some aren't."

One has to be willing to generalize from the professional pianists one knows. If one knows four professional pianists and they're all are extremely intelligent some people would be willing to offer an opinion on the original question. I'm not looking for statistically valid evidence for people's opinions.

For example, I think many would say that doctors are in general highly intelligent in the way I described in my OP because of the complex nature of the material they must know.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/23/10 03:51 PM.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #1461779 06/23/10 03:42 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Doctors!? Not my GP. You really are equating middleclassness with intelligence - it's a scam!

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
cfwpiano #1461780 06/23/10 03:44 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,409
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,409
Originally Posted by cfwpiano
I was saying that being able to have a conversation with someone is one way I measure intelligence. And I'm sorry if that's not what the thread was about, but your original post didn't do a good job of explaining WHAT exactly this thread is about, hence the 3 pages of discussion.
You keep wanting to bring up social intelligence. I don't see that mentioned in any way in my OP.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
keyboardklutz #1461783 06/23/10 03:52 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,409
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,409
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Doctors!? Not my GP. You really are equating middleclassness with intelligence - it's a scam!
I think you should look for a new GP.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #1461863 06/23/10 05:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,453
Concerning musicians, I would think that really good musicians are intelligent (in general, although there might be exceptions, like everywhere else). However, of course not all intelligent people can be good musicians or even average musicians, and that's for sure because I personally know some people with a very high IQ who gave up music within a month... I cannot go into details because PW comes up in Google all the time... ha



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
ChopinAddict #1462153 06/24/10 02:44 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 271
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 271
Quote
For example, I think many would say that doctors are in general highly intelligent in the way I described in my OP because of the complex nature of the material they must know.

I don't want to be the rotten strawberry on the forum's cake, but really, I'd like to politely disagree. Doctors surely are well trained, usually have a good memory, but is that high intelligence ?
Some doctors I met were quite close-minded people, because they had spent so much time studying only medecine (in France in can take like 10 years of non-stop work to finish your medical cursus). I think you call that "getting tunnel-visionned". However, because they have "learnt to work hard", it is also true they can catch up pretty fast in other field ; I always have that mental picture of an old doctor, sitting in his armchair with a smoke and a good book.
To be fair, it's easy for students / young workers to be caught in that "one subject" trap.

Quote
You missed my point entirely. smile

Sorry... Can't seem to get what you meant other than that.

Last edited by Mostly; 06/24/10 02:47 AM.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Mostly #1462231 06/24/10 06:52 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,409
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,409
Originally Posted by Mostly
Quote
For example, I think many would say that doctors are in general highly intelligent in the way I described in my OP because of the complex nature of the material they must know.

I don't want to be the rotten strawberry on the forum's cake, but really, I'd like to politely disagree. Doctors surely are well trained, usually have a good memory, but is that high intelligence ?
I think you make it sound like becoming a doctor is mostly memorizing and hard work. I think the complexity of the material and the need to make critical decisions(diagnoses) every day based on complex situations requires extremely intelligent(in the way described in my OP) people.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #1462247 06/24/10 07:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
Ah Mostly! may you never encounter an unintelligent doctor.. Luckily that is not commonly the case.

I think that discussions of intelligence levels are fraught with danger, though PLUS tried to navigate the subject away from the usual cookie-cutter arguments.
I think that succesful pianists (famous or not) are "generally" more intelligent than average (parallel to successful people in other fields) but the corollaries are not always true. Many highly intelligent people fail at "accessing" music and piano playing despite some motivation. Similarly a fair number of pianists and music students are not particularly (above average) "smart"..
Since PLUS asked, my personal experience is based on knowing some successful musicians (but not only pianists) and also music teachers (ex-concert pianists and otherwise). I think that very good music teachers are at a higher risk of having above average intelligence.

Of course we are defining average intelligence on a standard curve here, not outliers.. (within a single SD or so smile

P.S> I realllly hate this kind of argumentation. It is sooo refutable.. But tehre you ahve it.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229149 02/10/14 06:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1
I am 51 now, but I still remember how I would shut down during piano lessons. I started at 6 and it took me several years to really get the notes down. It wasn't till I got into my late teens till I got fluent in reading music and sight reading. Now I live to sight read and there is nothing more exciting than getting a new piano book or piece. We all like to think we are more intelligent that the average bear. I think I was a slow learner because I didn't discover until my late 40s that I have had Asperger's Syndrome. Most people I meet now are in awe of my abilities and would say that I am highly intelligent, but growing up with an abusive mother who forced me into piano lessons, her pet name for me was stupid. Under stress I would shut down and freeze up. We are very quick to judge someone's intelligence based on social cues and IQ tests don't always tell the whole story either. I think through hard work and over time we can rewire our brain through playing piano and music literacy - we are forced to use such intense concentration on a regular basis, that is impossible to do without higher level intellect. People we sometimes think have it pretty much together socially or professionally can make some of the stupidest life decisions and when we watch the news we wonder how much of the population makes it to middle age. I really hate to have the elitist attitude, but there are some DUMB people in the world. My mother called me stupid when she herself had no more than an 8th grade education - had 5 children and divorced twice when she really hates children. I wasn't stupid, she was, but for a long time during my life I believed I was inferior. When a child comes to me for piano lessons I make no judgment about their intellect. I don't care how slow they learn. There may be other issues that get in the way of their focus and concentration that I don't know anything about. I believe that learning to play piano and to read music can change your brain, even if it's through the route of finding the confidence in who you are.


Deborah Kay - Pianist/Vocalist
Lowell, MI

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life - Music & Cats" - Albert Schweitzer
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229153 02/10/14 06:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
P
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
I'll save BruceD the trouble. This thread is three and a half years old, etc, etc. grin


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2229161 02/10/14 06:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,002
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,002
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
I'll save BruceD the trouble. This thread is three and a half years old, etc, etc. grin

There you go again. grin

MissMeow, your post was fine.
And welcome to the site. smile

Poly, that kind of stuff serves no good purpose. I know that the re-upping of old threads annoys some people (for no evident reason). If it annoys you, how about just ignoring them. Most people here seem at least not to mind them, and some of us (like me) find it very interesting and useful.

And most important of all, old threads bring a lot of new members here, and posting on those old threads is very often how those new members begin participating.

Do you really want to stifle that?

Why old threads are often what bring new members here: Because when people do internet searches (or searches on this site) for specific things, old threads often show up, often indiscriminately from newer threads. And new members, not being familiar with the site, aren't necessarily able to tell that they're old threads, and/or they might not realize that re-upping an old thread is so inexplicably annoying to some people.

Please, y'all, let them do it, stop b***ching about it, and let it be. It's a good thing. And even if you don't feel it's a good thing, on balance it's a good thing. smile

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Mark_C #2229192 02/10/14 07:52 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,467
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,467
Originally Posted by Mark_C
[...]I know that the re-upping of old threads annoys some people (for no evident reason).


Occasionally, there is good reason.

Originally Posted by Mark_C
If it annoys you, how about just ignoring them.


If it annoys you that some people comment negatively on the reviving of old threads, how about just ignoring them?

If you feel the right to express your opinion, why can't others do likewise? Is it wrong because it disagrees with yours?


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
BruceD #2229200 02/10/14 08:11 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Mark_C
[...]I know that the re-upping of old threads annoys some people (for no evident reason).


Occasionally, there is good reason.

Originally Posted by Mark_C
If it annoys you, how about just ignoring them.


If it annoys you that some people comment negatively on the reviving of old threads, how about just ignoring them?

If you feel the right to express your opinion, why can't others do likewise? Is it wrong because it disagrees with yours?

I really just think Mark is trying to weed out the negativity.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
MissMeowsic #2229211 02/10/14 08:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,426
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,426
Originally Posted by MissMeowsic
I am 51 now, but I still remember how I would shut down during piano lessons. I started at 6 and it took me several years to really get the notes down. It wasn't till I got into my late teens till I got fluent in reading music and sight reading. Now I live to sight read and there is nothing more exciting than getting a new piano book or piece. We all like to think we are more intelligent that the average bear. I think I was a slow learner because I didn't discover until my late 40s that I have had Asperger's Syndrome. Most people I meet now are in awe of my abilities and would say that I am highly intelligent, but growing up with an abusive mother who forced me into piano lessons, her pet name for me was stupid. Under stress I would shut down and freeze up. We are very quick to judge someone's intelligence based on social cues and IQ tests don't always tell the whole story either. I think through hard work and over time we can rewire our brain through playing piano and music literacy - we are forced to use such intense concentration on a regular basis, that is impossible to do without higher level intellect. People we sometimes think have it pretty much together socially or professionally can make some of the stupidest life decisions and when we watch the news we wonder how much of the population makes it to middle age. I really hate to have the elitist attitude, but there are some DUMB people in the world. My mother called me stupid when she herself had no more than an 8th grade education - had 5 children and divorced twice when she really hates children. I wasn't stupid, she was, but for a long time during my life I believed I was inferior. When a child comes to me for piano lessons I make no judgment about their intellect. I don't care how slow they learn. There may be other issues that get in the way of their focus and concentration that I don't know anything about. I believe that learning to play piano and to read music can change your brain, even if it's through the route of finding the confidence in who you are.


Welcome to Piano World, Miss Meowsic! That is a beautiful, personal post you wrote. I am curious--how did you find this thread that caused you to resonate with it so much?

You will find, if you stick around Piano World, that there are others with Asperger's here, too, who find solace and order in their musical endeavors.

Also, you might want to explore the Teacher's Forum!

Warm Regards,
--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229217 02/10/14 08:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 268
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 268
I don't believe there is only one kind of 'intelligence', but rather many different kinds.

In that view, certainly professional pianists are possessed of high degrees of intelligence in several areas. But that doesn't necessarily mean they are extremely gifted in other areas, or even that they don't struggle in other areas.

The brain is incredibly complicated and it's possible for an individual to have near super-human musical gifts but be impoverished in almost every other area (these individuals are commonly known as 'savants'.) Certain kinds of intelligence to seem to be connected with others and the exaggerated presence of one tends to mean a somewhat diminished presence of another, although not always.

Generally speaking though, musicianship is a discipline that requires intense intellectual focus and has the consequence of sharpening the mind into a razor. No matter who you are or how smart / not smart you think you are, music will certainly make you smarter and sharper!

It will also make you happier and help you live longer. In short, everyone should play the lute.

Last edited by Roland The Beagle; 02/10/14 08:47 PM.

Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229258 02/10/14 09:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,944
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,944
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
...analytical intelligence, verbal skills, IQ, or general smarts. Someone who would be thought of as very smart in school (but didn't necessarily have to receive good grades).


I would assume so, because...

Originally Posted by pianoloverus

I don't know many professional pianists personally, but many of the ones I know seem super intelligent. (It's possible that it's hard for me to separate their very high musical intelligence from the rest of their intellectual ability.)


The professional pianists I know/know of are quite intelligent. Of course, there is always some varying in (what I perceive as) intelligence, (as well as varying in level/professionalism itself, hehe), but it does seem that way in my limited experience.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus

Based on their writings/interviews Hamelin, Chiu and Hough seem extremely intelligent to me(these are not the pianists I mentioned above as knowing personally!).


I agree!!

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229262 02/10/14 10:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Master pianists would probably perform pretty well in certain portions of the WAIS-IV, but don't expect anything from the final score. Being a master pianist does not imply any kind of significant gain in a composite IQ score.

If you look here: http://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/

You'll actually find that "Arts-Performance & Studio" majors are pretty low on the spectrum, with an average IQ of 114.

Being a master pianist does not mean you are necessarily highly intelligent. However, the elite in things such as math, the sciences, and engineering can be considered to be "highly intelligent" (insofar as a composite IQ score).

Last edited by Atrys; 02/10/14 10:44 PM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Page 4 of 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 19 20

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
HELP with VST
by Eli26 - 11/25/20 09:14 PM
Weinbach Grand--What the what?!
by jmiley97302 - 11/25/20 07:17 PM
Using the same music in two different pieces
by pianoloverus - 11/25/20 07:04 PM
first family piano for my 8-10 years old
by danyrc - 11/25/20 04:36 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,047
Posts3,027,178
Members99,372
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4