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Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 #1316471
12/02/09 03:53 AM
12/02/09 03:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Conner_36 Offline OP
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Conner_36  Offline OP
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Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 was written by Chopin. Info from wiki gives me "The Nocturnes, Op. 27 are two solo piano pieces composed by Frédéric Chopin and are often regarded as two of the best pieces he ever composed.[1] The piece was composed in 1836[2] and published in 1837. Both nocturnes in this opus are dedicated to Countess d'Appony." Wiki on Op. 27
It's around seven minutes the way I play it. The version is edited and fingered by Rafael Joseffy.
The first section.
The tempo is Larghetto and the signature is C# minor. It starts with the note C# in the bass and creates a wind like motion going up a perfect 5th and then up an octave, down a 5th a perfect 4th another 5th and then back up a 5th, 4th, 5th, (down a) 5th, 4th, 5th. I found this to be one of the key difficulties of the piece is to keep (sempre legato) this bass motion while being pannissimo (pp). It's very important to keep the left hand not raised, but close to the keyboard using the wrist to let your hand stay perpendicular to the keys. Allowing your wrist to pitch at either peak as well as experimenting with the thumb to keep the long streaches before the most bass note legato helps with keeping the flow. It's important to keep the left hand in rhythm and to pronounce (not overshadowing the melody) the 1st beat of the sextuplet.
Then after the first 2 measures from almost a world a way (sotto voce) enters the single note of E setting the minor feel of the song completing the (C# E G#) tonic cord. Then after two beats it trys to enter a major tone with E#/F but the bass denies us peace with the B creating a minor third from the previous peak note (G#). Then as if it breaks through with the first beat of the third measure it's crushed with another minor third on the third beat (F# and A). The F# lingers and fades away as the second beat fourth measure goes E D as 1/8th notes then third beat C# fourth beat B# then back to the tonic on the first beat of the 5th measure completing this harmic minor of C#. Then up an accented perfect 5th as if begging for a E# to fill the void between C# and G#, again at the last moment we are stuck with E completing the minor cord and restarting the melody. This time the entire measure is minor without any hope of being happy. Enters the next measure with E# it gets crushed and we are left stuned by the clash of the B# (4th beat 9th measure) and the diminished 5th in the bass that stays through the next measure (my fingering in the bass goes as such: up 3 2 1 and down 2 1 5 repeat).
Should I take the time to complete this? Does anyone find this useful?

Written on my iPhone.

Last edited by Betsalel; 12/02/09 03:56 AM. Reason: updated info

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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: Conner_36] #1316568
12/02/09 08:39 AM
12/02/09 08:39 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
S
sotto voce Offline
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Betsalel,

Any individual poster can only answer for himself or herself, so I think the most important thing is whether you find it to be a valuable exercise. A great many people read this forum without actively participating at all, and it is without question a suitable place for you to post such an analysis. I think it goes without saying that someone, somewhere and at some point in time will find it useful.

I started a thread once for the sole purpose of documenting, along with supporting illustrations, the typographical errors in the Joseffy edition of Chopin's Allegro de Concert published by Schirmer. It went unacknowledged except by BruceD, but it was fun for me and may be helpful one day to someone who's searching for such information.

I once requested an analysis of the harmonic progression of a piece as straightforward as Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 1, and found that no one was interested in providing one. Needless to say, I would have been grateful if it had been this Nocturne I had asked about. smile

Even though 27/1 isn't my favorite Nocturne and I would dispute statements in Wikipedia—namely that it's one of the most famous Nocturnes or one of the best pieces (!) written by Chopin—I do find your analysis interesting, and your own interest in the piece is admirable.

Steven

Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: sotto voce] #1316696
12/02/09 12:06 PM
12/02/09 12:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,653
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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I enjoy reading analyses of pieces, particularly of those that I know well and play or have played. For my tastes, however, I find a note-by-note analysis such as this one a little bit of over-kill. I can't speak how others will view such a detailed analysis - and other reactions will be interesting to read - but for me a more comprehensive over-view of the Nocturne would be more meaningful. Harmonic analysis is helpful, yes, but I don't think we need to be told what individual notes are played unless there is some relation established to the overall structure or unless some specific reason is given to highlight individual notes in a composition.

I would suggest a reading of some of the analyses of individual Chopin works in Eleanor Bailie's The Pianist's Repertoire : Chopin, A Graded Practical Guide (Kahn and Averill, London, 1998) where a detailed analysis relates to an overal concept of the work, combined with practical performance suggestions.

Taking you at your word and responding to your last two questions : This analysis is too much "trees" and too little "forest" for my interest.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: BruceD] #1317242
12/03/09 04:09 AM
12/03/09 04:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
Pretoria South Africa
btb Offline
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btb  Offline
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Pretoria South Africa
With sincere respect Betsalel, obviously deep into admiration of Chopin ...
and in particular Nocturne Opus 27-1.

Interesting poetic analysis, describing the work in terms of harmonic intervals ... accurate, but inevitably getting bogged down a mire of words.

“It starts with the note C# in the bass and creates a wind like motion going up a perfect 5th and then up an octave, down a 5th a perfect 4th another 5th and then back up a 5th, 4th, 5th,
(down a) 5th, 4th, 5th” .

It goes without saying that the harmonies reflect the genius of Chopin (par for the course) ... but what is much more to the point is the overall structure ... use of a rippling rhythmic sextuplet LH note pattern (quite tricky) ... provides a regular pulse on which to mount the opening poignant single note RH outline .

But in making an analysis of the LH sextuplets, it can prove useful to list the notes in terms of DEGREES OF MINOR SCALE ... and follow the flow ... here’s how I see the notes to the opening 10 measures.
[Linked Image]

I’m presently fascinated by the D-naturals in LH measures 9 and 10 ... instinctively Chopin chimes in with your 4th and 5th intervals.




Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: BruceD] #1317268
12/03/09 06:13 AM
12/03/09 06:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Conner_36 Offline OP
Full Member
Conner_36  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by BruceD
I enjoy reading analyses of pieces, particularly of those that I know well and play or have played. For my tastes, however, I find a note-by-note analysis such as this one a little bit of over-kill. I can't speak how others will view such a detailed analysis - and other reactions will be interesting to read - but for me a more comprehensive over-view of the Nocturne would be more meaningful. Harmonic analysis is helpful, yes, but I don't think we need to be told what individual notes are played unless there is some relation established to the overall structure or unless some specific reason is given to highlight individual notes in a composition.

I would suggest a reading of some of the analyses of individual Chopin works in Eleanor Bailie's The Pianist's Repertoire : Chopin, A Graded Practical Guide (Kahn and Averill, London, 1998) where a detailed analysis relates to an overal concept of the work, combined with practical performance suggestions.

Taking you at your word and responding to your last two questions : This analysis is too much "trees" and too little "forest" for my interest.

Regards,

Thanks, I think that I'll write about the forest and then the trees, it helps knowing the overall picture before getting into the details.


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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: btb] #1317270
12/03/09 06:14 AM
12/03/09 06:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Conner_36 Offline OP
Full Member
Conner_36  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by btb
With sincere respect Betsalel, obviously deep into admiration of Chopin ...
and in particular Nocturne Opus 27-1.

Interesting poetic analysis, describing the work in terms of harmonic intervals ... accurate, but inevitably getting bogged down a mire of words.

“It starts with the note C# in the bass and creates a wind like motion going up a perfect 5th and then up an octave, down a 5th a perfect 4th another 5th and then back up a 5th, 4th, 5th,
(down a) 5th, 4th, 5th” .

It goes without saying that the harmonies reflect the genius of Chopin (par for the course) ... but what is much more to the point is the overall structure ... use of a rippling rhythmic sextuplet LH note pattern (quite tricky) ... provides a regular pulse on which to mount the opening poignant single note RH outline .

But in making an analysis of the LH sextuplets, it can prove useful to list the notes in terms of DEGREES OF MINOR SCALE ... and follow the flow ... here’s how I see the notes to the opening 10 measures.
[Linked Image]

I’m presently fascinated by the D-naturals in LH measures 9 and 10 ... instinctively Chopin chimes in with your 4th and 5th intervals.



Where did you get a chart like that?


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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: Conner_36] #1317436
12/03/09 10:40 AM
12/03/09 10:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
Pretoria South Africa
btb Offline
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btb  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
Pretoria South Africa
The table is merely a patient analysis of each of the LH notes in the first 10 measures of the Chopin Nocturne Opus 27-1.

One of the advantages of developing a MIDI diagram is to see an accurate relationship of the pitch and duration of every note ... and their bonding to the overall shape of music ... a tapestry of sound.

Here’s what a MIDI of the first 20 measures of the Nocturne
27-1 looks like ... note the dual sextuplet ripples to each measure of the LH, surmounted by the single-note outline of the RH ... the result is sheer poetic beauty of form (like the weave of a Persian carpet).

The horizontal lines mark the C octaves ... notice how often the bass keynote C# initiates the LH ripples ... from the diagram it becomes too easy to list the various sextuplet note patterns.

[Linked Image]

Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: btb] #1345600
01/10/10 11:03 AM
01/10/10 11:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Conner_36 Offline OP
Full Member
Conner_36  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Here is a video of me playing the Nocturne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HY53nmUUHg


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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: Conner_36] #1461382
06/23/10 03:34 AM
06/23/10 03:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
Conner_36 Offline OP
Full Member
Conner_36  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Pennsylvania
I uploaded a new video of me playing the nocturne Link.


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Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: btb] #1461661
06/23/10 01:06 PM
06/23/10 01:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,653
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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BruceD  Offline
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Posts: 21,653
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by btb
[...]One of the advantages of developing a MIDI diagram is to see an accurate relationship of the pitch and duration of every note ... and their bonding to the overall shape of music ... a tapestry of sound.
[...]


The score tells (shows) me that.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: BruceD] #1461794
06/23/10 03:59 PM
06/23/10 03:59 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,042
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,042
New York City
I think kbk's midi graphs look like graphing calculator screens.

I'd like to see a movie made about one of Chopin's pupils bringing a midi graph to a lesson. How would Chopin react?

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/23/10 04:02 PM.
Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus] #1461803
06/23/10 04:07 PM
06/23/10 04:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,935
D
dolce sfogato Offline
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D

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As I told a musical theory teacher once: cutting open the nightingale's throat to see where the music is coming from, is killing the music...


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: pianoloverus] #1461806
06/23/10 04:12 PM
06/23/10 04:12 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,215
Down Under
currawong Offline
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Down Under
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think kbk's midi graphs look like graphing calculator screens.
btb, not kbk. Not sure either of them would be flattered to be mistaken for the other. smile


Du holde Kunst...
Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: dolce sfogato] #1461839
06/23/10 04:50 PM
06/23/10 04:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 82
S
SoundEffect Offline
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SoundEffect  Offline
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S

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
As I told a musical theory teacher once: cutting open the nightingale's throat to see where the music is coming from, is killing the music...

Hm, at least it is killing the bird.
But generally I am on the other side of the fence, as expressed by Feynman here:

Re: Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 1 [Re: Conner_36] #1461890
06/23/10 05:57 PM
06/23/10 05:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 130
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Originally Posted by Conner_36
Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 was written by Chopin. Info from wiki gives me "The Nocturnes, Op. 27 are two solo piano pieces composed by Frédéric Chopin and are often regarded as two of the best pieces he ever composed.[1] The piece was composed in 1836[2] and published in 1837. Both nocturnes in this opus are dedicated to Countess d'Appony." Wiki on Op. 27
It's around seven minutes the way I play it. The version is edited and fingered by Rafael Joseffy.
The first section.
The tempo is Larghetto and the signature is C# minor. It starts with the note C# in the bass and creates a wind like motion going up a perfect 5th and then up an octave, down a 5th a perfect 4th another 5th and then back up a 5th, 4th, 5th, (down a) 5th, 4th, 5th. I found this to be one of the key difficulties of the piece is to keep (sempre legato) this bass motion while being pannissimo (pp). It's very important to keep the left hand not raised, but close to the keyboard using the wrist to let your hand stay perpendicular to the keys. Allowing your wrist to pitch at either peak as well as experimenting with the thumb to keep the long streaches before the most bass note legato helps with keeping the flow. It's important to keep the left hand in rhythm and to pronounce (not overshadowing the melody) the 1st beat of the sextuplet.
Then after the first 2 measures from almost a world a way (sotto voce) enters the single note of E setting the minor feel of the song completing the (C# E G#) tonic cord. Then after two beats it trys to enter a major tone with E#/F but the bass denies us peace with the B creating a minor third from the previous peak note (G#). Then as if it breaks through with the first beat of the third measure it's crushed with another minor third on the third beat (F# and A). The F# lingers and fades away as the second beat fourth measure goes E D as 1/8th notes then third beat C# fourth beat B# then back to the tonic on the first beat of the 5th measure completing this harmic minor of C#. Then up an accented perfect 5th as if begging for a E# to fill the void between C# and G#, again at the last moment we are stuck with E completing the minor cord and restarting the melody. This time the entire measure is minor without any hope of being happy. Enters the next measure with E# it gets crushed and we are left stuned by the clash of the B# (4th beat 9th measure) and the diminished 5th in the bass that stays through the next measure (my fingering in the bass goes as such: up 3 2 1 and down 2 1 5 repeat).
Should I take the time to complete this? Does anyone find this useful?

Written on my iPhone.


I found the analysis interesting. However, as mentioned before it is kinda overkill (I got bored with it a little blush). This is an amazing nocturne and, as a matter of fact, I am learning it right now; the middle section is absolutely badazz cool!!! I think an analysis of your emotions or a story (like the one in the introduction of the book) will be more interesting, even if it is overly sentimental grin. I prefer the Mikuli edition of the Nocturnes.


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