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Hi,
I ask you some patience since my english is limited and the post is a bit long. Thank you in advance!
I'd like to start saying that I came back to the technical exercises and already noticed some improvements.
I use Alfred Cortot's book "Rational Principles of Pianoforte Technique". I'm aware that this is not a largely used book, and that every trainning program depends much more of the judicious use of it with a experienced teacher than the program itself.
That's what I'm doing. I do all under supervision of my teacher, but also I kind of try some things on my own, so I'm sharing now some experiences.
Back to the point, after this short intro, in Cortot there are lots of technical exercises, but there are a special preliminary chapter called "Daily Keyboard Gymnastics", and I have to say this is helping me much more than any other "pure" technical exercises I have did before, in a matter of 9 days only! (my eacher didn't assign my this preliminary chapter, I'm doing this because I want to try everything Cortot says is important to do on daily basis)
The reason, I wonder, is while several other exercises focus on the strenghtening of the flexors and extensors only, this gimnastics are helping me to stretch in some kind of different way the 4th finger, such that it is becoming more loose. I mean, no matter how you grow in strenght the flexor, because you also have to move the 4th finger (and all the others, of course) in such way the the tendons of the 5th and 3rd fingers are not pulled togheter. This is, I think, the major problem with the 4th finger.
After the gimnastics I notice right the way a more relaxed wrist, thumb, and a more free 4th finger in the following exercises.
One particular exercise ask you to do a 5 fingering very basic, like CDEFG (Cortot also ask you to to transpositions every day to renew the position of the hands and fingers), but pressing down all the keys (relaxed wrist), in such way that after you strike a key with, say, the 4th finger, the 4th finger will remain in contact with its key, and then you will lower the hand as far as possible below the level of the keyboard, keeping the free fingers **folded back** towards the palm of the hand. I also rise my wrist the same way as far as possible in a combined movement.
This exercise is helping me to stretch the tendons that ties the 4th finger with the 3rd and 5th ones, the major weakness factor of the 4th finger.
I do as a complement to this an exercise similar when I'm way of the keyboard. I fold all the 5 fingers towards the palm of my hand, then I try to move each finger such that I get it straight. The 4th finger is the worse since its extensor tendon is very bonded with the 5th's finger, and I feel it at the 5th finger. Also, I do the same with the help of the other hand to stretch the finger relaxed.
Last week I couldn't get the 4th finger of my hand straight at all, now I can, and some how I feel it is more independent because of THIS exercise.
(also I pull gently the 5 fingers, and stretch my forearm and wrist in traditional and safe exercises)
The fact is: my fingers are stronger and more flexible!
I don't know if someone think this is usefull, or perhaps DANGEROUS, so I'm ask for informed opinions. Also, I'd like to hear what kind of exercises you people used to loose and strenghtening your 4th finger.
cheers
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Hi, al-mahed, I always start the day with Cortot's Rational Principles of Pianoforte Technique, but I only do the Daily Keyboard Gymnastics and the Series A from the first chapter (about 15 minutes). Then I do a Major/minor set of scales, like E and c#, for example with octaves, arpeggios and thirds, like this: E scale, E octaves, E arpeggios, E broken octaves, E thirds; then c# minor scale, c# minor octaves, etc. also about 15 minutes. Later in the day, after a break for lunch, I 'warm' in the afternoon with some Bach Inventions hand-separate, just 10 minutes.
Jose Kawai K5 - Kawai CA61
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let your body give the alarmsign, if something doen't feel right, stop and relax, if there's no problem, well, go on doing what you do, only keep the antenna for physical problems pointed upwards, listen to your body, don't ask your hands do do what they simply can't, there is no music that can't be played with normal hands, it's mainly in the head...
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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Hi, al-mahed, I always start the day with Cortot's Rational Principles of Pianoforte Technique, but I only do the Daily Keyboard Gymnastics and the Series A from the first chapter (about 15 minutes). Then I do a Major/minor set of scales, like E and c#, for example with octaves, arpeggios and thirds, like this: E scale, E octaves, E arpeggios, E broken octaves, E thirds; then c# minor scale, c# minor octaves, etc. also about 15 minutes. Later in the day, after a break for lunch, I 'warm' in the afternoon with some Bach Inventions hand-separate, just 10 minutes. Hi Gonzalez, thanks for the imput. I don't know how you manage to do the exercises in 15 minutes , I do them very slow and concentrated. I spend normally 50 minutes on the gymnastics ones. I know Cortot says that you have to do the gymnastic ones 15 minutes as warm up, but my finger's control is poor, so I do it slow to concentrate in move ONLY my fingers and relax everything else. If I do it faster I'll help my fingers with wirst and forearm. Thats the thing I started to notice after this gymnastics and series 1 exercises. I help a lot my fingers. Even being able to play a ragtime piece quite fast, and without too much tension, my fingers's strenght are very low. I move the fingers so slow and so concetrated that they shake. I know this thing will not causes me injuries, because is slow, without tension. My worries are the stretch ones, specially the exercise 7. I feel a lot of tendons stretching when I try to keep the not involved fingers folded, so I'm afraid to cause an injury. I rise the finger trying to not involve the other fingers, then I down it very slow until I touch the key, then a press the key as fast as I can without involving the other fingers, and finally I leave the natural weight of the key push back my finger, very slowly to do an even movement. It is more difficult than sounds, to really move only the finger. ps: why you don't do the other series of exercises? ps2: what are your toughts about cortot until now? cheers
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let your body give the alarmsign, if something doen't feel right, stop and relax, if there's no problem, well, go on doing what you do, only keep the antenna for physical problems pointed upwards, listen to your body, don't ask your hands do do what they simply can't, there is no music that can't be played with normal hands, it's mainly in the head... I know this "golden rule" to avoid injury. The problem, Dolce, is that in reality you have to push a little bit. I don't think finger's independence is ONLY a mental process, this is why I started this thread. Somehow this "workout" are helping me with the finger's independence. Knowing the limit where I must stop to push is the difficult thing to me! A concrete example to ilustrate: The extensor(s) of the 4th and 5th fingers are very connected. The folded fingers exercise aims to loose this connection, I think, because when you try to fold the fingers towars the palm of your hand and at the same time lift and get straight the 4th fingers you feel right away the tendons of your 5th finger being very stretched. A the 4th finger pulls the 5th finger with, the act of keep the 5th finger folded creates a contrary motion, so you are forcing a unatural movement, so to speak. But you don't want the 5th to be pulled together, so the stretch is important. The problem is: how much to stretch? Until it hurts a tinny bit? Or a little further? If you even do any kind of stretch you know that you have to push it a tinny bit further every day to achieve more flexibility. But I'm too afraid to get my fingers injuried !! What you think about what I just said? cheers
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"No pain, no gain" can really only be applied to sports and physical activities. you really can't have this mindset when you play piano because really, if you feel pain (from "pushing a little bit"), then you're doing something wrong. piano, when played properly, should be effortless and actually promote healing rather than damage you. by only moving one finger, and restricting the rest of them, you are actually going against your body's natural tendencies. by doing this, you WILL definitely tense up and i can assure that you WILL get injured. i don't think that any of these exercises are quite practical and that "finger independence" relies on just your mind finally being able to coordinate all of these movements. i think if you want to learn how to play more effectively, it would be a better decision (than doing dangerous "stretching exercises") to read these two books and other books on musician health: - what every pianist needs to know about the body - indirect procedures: a musician's guide to alexander technique by reading these, you'll get an idea of how your body actually works in playing piano, and trust me, it makes an astronomical difference in solving technical problems. regular technique is fine to do (scales, arpeggios, etc) but anything that forces you to isolate fingers, stretch your hands, put them in uncomfortable positions is VERY dangerous. and you'll really see the consequence when you start practicing more frequently. edit: i also notice that you said that you feel much more loose when you do these exercises. they may not necessarily be more loose (from stretching everything), but because you're tensing everything up, it can give you the impression that your hand/arm is actually looser than it was before. it's just finally relaxing because of the extreme pressure that you're putting on it. also, it is not necessary to actually "strengthen" your fingers. why? well, because there's no muscles in them! there's nothing to strengthen! you said yourself that you feel your tendons tightening when you do these exercises. well, those tendons in your forearms (all the way up to your back) are what actually help you play the piano, so you definitely do not want to do something that makes you feel them! if you choose to read the books that i suggested, you will be able to figure out a way to move your body incredibly freely. if you ever need technical help, i am very passionate about maintaining musician's health so you can ALWAYS ask me or if you post a video, i can help you with anything!
Last edited by Richter; 06/19/10 10:08 PM.
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Chopin, Brahms, Schubert, Rachmaninov
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Hi Richter, thank you for the replying!
When I said "isolate the fingers" I wasn't meaning any kind of forced position or something, I was saying in fact I do it MENTALY, trying to focus on relaxing everything else. This is why I said I only can isolate (mentaly, relaxing) my fingers if I do it very slowly. And when I get it totally mentally isolated I feel that the muscles that move them are very weak.
The stretches are more dangerous, I know, but the reason I started this thread is because I felt a real improvement of my finger's independence and strenght doing the exercises and stretches I described here.
Perhaps is better to keep these improvements and move out to safer stretches and exercises... wich ones do you use to get your 4th more independent?
cheers
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I use these, too. The ones specifically for finger-independence.
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I use these, too. The ones specifically for finger-independence. the schmitt ones?
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Sorry. Yes, Schmitt. I think number 35 through 150. (I don't have the book in front of me.) The exercises that involve holding notes.
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Beware. I once had a teacher, a rather accomplished woman on faculty at a prominent conservatory, who had an agent and had done several recordings.
This teacher introduced me to Schmitt exercises. As accomplished as she was, she wore wrist braces on both hands. Draw your own conclusions.
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Beware. I once had a teacher, a rather accomplished woman on faculty at a prominent conservatory, who had an agent and had done several recordings.
This teacher introduced me to Schmitt exercises. As accomplished as she was, she wore wrist braces on both hands. Draw your own conclusions. Ok, now I read the book "WHAT EVERY PIANIST NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT THE BODY". According to that book, on of the causes of injury is co-contraction. Exercises with held notes one can find in both Cortot, Schmitt, and some tohers books (I have the Piano Handbook, there is an exercise in trills with help notes). Holding the notes generates co-contration if one articulate (lift) the other free fingers before hit the key. In what situation is safe (or even useful) to articulate (lift) the fingers? Hanon ask you to lift the fingers in some exercises, right? The holding the notes itself can be dangerous? cheers
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Play the fourth finger on its pad, or its 'tippy toe', that is my teacher's advice. This lends the weight of the hand behind the finger, transferring the weight through the fourth finger tip or pad.
Baldwin Charles Walter
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If I let the 4th, and 5th, more curled than my natural position, and more apart from each other, they become stronger and more "free". But, everybody says to play the fingers in the natural position of the hands, so I'm confused...
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If playing any piece that involved holding a note (or notes) while playing other notes with the same hand were inherently dangerous, then Bach fugues would require a Surgeon General's warning.
The danger lies in overdoing it, or doing it with too much tension in the fingers holding the notes.
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If playing any piece that involved holding a note (or notes) while playing other notes with the same hand were inherently dangerous, then Bach fugues would require a Surgeon General's warning.
The danger lies in overdoing it, or doing it with too much tension in the fingers holding the notes. Ok, and what about lift the fingers to articulate it, I'm just asking this because of what the book said (co-contraction). What is the benefit of doing exercises lifting the fingers high? cheers
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I would think that lifting the fingers high while holding other notes down is dangerous, because of the resulting tension. With holding exercises, I'd recommend keeping the fingers in contact with the keys as much as possible.
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I would think that lifting the fingers high while holding other notes down is dangerous, because of the resulting tension. With holding exercises, I'd recommend keeping the fingers in contact with the keys as much as possible. Agreed. And make sure to hold a lot of dead weight on that finger that is held, this helps relieve tension and allows you to stretch a bit as well.
Currently working on: Bach: Invention 8 in F major Chopin: Prelude No. 6 in b minor Haydn: Sonata in Dmaj, Hob XVIII/DI Chopin: Etude op 10/2, only for finger exercise.
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