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Re confusing shape with expression. Expression pretty well covers everything we do to bring the music alive. Phrasing, articulation (including accents) and rhythm provide shape. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on how dynamics shape music whilst phrasing and articulation do not.

Real Samples Edition Beurmann has sampled a Lute-Harpsichord built to what they think the Bach instrument was:
http://www.realsamples.de/Edition_B...uge_BWV_1000_g_fuer_Lautenwerck_SF09.mp3

http://www.realsamples.de/Edition_B...Praeludium_I_-_Johann_Sebastian_Bach.mp3

http://www.realsamples.de/Edition_B...aeludium_III_-_Johann_Sebastian_Bach.mp3

It has some examples of how it sounds when played, if anyone is interested. Very nice sound, though - I can see why Bach would have liked it. The sample is beyond my financial reach, at the moment!

Robert Hill recorded two multi-CD sets called "Bach as Teacher: Keyboard works from the Cothen period." Many of the pieces are played on a lute-harpsichord. It's Hänssler Complete Edition Bachakademie, Volume 107, a budget label.

I bought mine very cheaply from http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/

Thanks so much for those links Matardo, Fantastic! I love the sound of the lute harpsichord... quite possibly more than a harpsichord itself! Even one equipped with a Lute stop!

What does shape mean to you? I ONLY meant shape as in, notes can sound louder and softer than others. Do you really deny that? The only point I was making is that the harpsichord can't do cantabile. I don't see why this is so hard to comprehend. I didn't say it isn't expressive. (although it's probably the least expressive instrument there is, just because of that one limitation)

Yes, the Lute stop has a lovely sound in itself - but a little lacking for an entire piece - the dedicated harpischord sounds like it was constructed to sound a lot better and be generally more useful.

There's some strange-looking ones out there!

Have you spent time playing any harpsichords? They can be very expressive - just listen to any good recording or harpsichordist. There are ways to vary dynamics on a harpsichord - not as obviously as a piano can, but it can be done.

Does cantabile necesarrily entail marked dynamic contrast?

M: I don't like repeating myself..... but here: I din't say it isn't expressive. (although it's probably the least expressive instrument there is). Least expressive doesn't mean non expressive. Of course I've played harpsichords. There ARE ways to vary dynamics - on a different set of keyboard of the harpsichord. Why do I feel like I'm saying things over and over ..

Cantabile means, when applied to keyboard playing, to imitate the human voice. It doesn't just have to do with dynamics - come on, how do you usually hear a cello being played? Or piano even? How do you shape a simple phrase? (and no I don't mean accents or any of that)

Doesn't it mean to play in a singing, legato fashion? A human voice can sing staccato and in a non-cantabile way if the music calls for it. So it cannot be refering to the instrument, but the way the instrument is typically used in most vocal music.

Yes, hence the imitating the human voice part. Since the voice is considered the most expressive instrument.. isn't it? I don't know why this is so difficult to get across. Maybe it's my limited english skills.

I agree Mattardo that it is possible to alter the dynamics on the harpsichord, but I hadn't mentioned it as a) it's very subtle and b) would not be believed by the harpsichord phobics in this forum.

Angelina: if you define shaping as playing loudly or softly, fine. I define shaping rather differently. Cantabile? How do you define that? A harpsichord's single note "sings". Smooth, singing legato? Well, overlapping the notes slightly provides a legato sound, which is also, because of the open strings, resonant. Expressiveness? If you define that as playing loudly or softly, again, fine. I believe expressiveness is obtained by many more skills than just playing loudly or softly (and all the intermediate weights).

We might just agree to disagree. I will continue to enjoy Bach on the harpsichord and on the piano - the expressiveness coming from, to a degree, different skills and techniques.

Okay. I don't think there's a point in arguing with you since I'm obviously failing to make my point.

It seems to me you're all for flat singing (monotone) with no basic shape. And I'm not talking about loud and soft, because there are so many shades of one dynamic. Which haprichord can't do. Don't take it so hard I'm just stating the obvious. It's not something that's supposed to be controversial! When someone tells me to shape something more, it means to give it more direction.

Maybe if I add, the ability to sing a single line cantabile, is much easier and much more expressive on, say, string instruments, voice or even piano.

We really have a different definition of "shape"! If someone asks me to shape the music more, I would look to my phrasing, articulation, accents/rhythm first.
My wife's 'cello teacher (a fiery Hungarian) would splutter at the piano being equated with a stringed instrument. He's very dismissive of the piano. A stringed instrument can hold a single line for ever, literally, until the player gets too tired, with all the dynamic changes you could wish for on the way. As a percussive instrument, we pianists really struggle to get anywhere near a stringed instrument in producing a cantabile line. (As do harpsichordists, of course)
As a matter of interest, do you regard organs - except 19C ones - as unexpressive? Baroque organs certainly have more stops than a harpsichord, but are still basically limited to terraced dynamics. Does Peter Hurford's Bach playing lack expressiveness for you? A genuine question, as you seem to place a very high values on subtle changes to dynamics for expressing your feeling for the music.

Just because the music says Cantabile, doesn't mean its possible to play it exactly like a human voice. No instrument can. But its the idea to play it like that, of which the music is trying to tell you.

Often times instead of saying cantabile, it says singing like. Same idea. of course your instrument cant physically sing human notes, but its the idea of shaping and developing the sound.

If I had a way to upload Rameau's Rondea Musette - it might change some minds.
I just have to find the right one I have in mind..

Well I don't particularly find the piano that expressive to be honest. Solely because the notes die after you press them. But it's a heck of a lot easier to shape. And yes we do have a different sense of shape. It's just how my teachers have talked to me all my life.

No I don't really like hurford. He's a great player but I struggle with liking organ.

I suppose you wouldn't think much of fischer's Bach?

Ps listen to fischer's b flat minor WTC I.

Here - I don't know about anyone else, but I find this piece has some cantabile playing:
http://www.box.net/shared/fl90y3giyv

It's Catherine Latzarus playing.

Repeating one's self on this forum is quite common, ya' know! Don't ya' know you have to scream everything 20 times to be heard?