Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
78 registered members (barbaram, 36251, Alexank, AndyP, 7uturu, 15 invisible), 1,464 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#1454968 - 06/12/10 03:32 AM You Tube's biggest Hams  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
philosophyfan Offline
Full Member
philosophyfan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
Some people on these forums are probably going to hate me for this, but I really don't care. Here are my picks for You Tube's biggest Hams (in no particular order).

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqw7NQk0cdY
(Please! Someone stop this kid before his bad acting becomes a habit!)

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMVJ0P-Sfvg&feature=related
(If Michael Bolton played the Piano this is what would result)

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAsDLGjMhFI&feature=related
(The ghost of Beethoven is so going to strangle her in her sleep)

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVVSWHkxs8&feature=related
(What can one say except, "Would you like some Stilton with your ham?")

5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no&feature=related
(His acting is as much a gimmick as are his clothes)

6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbWTd-e41U0
(Oh no, I think he is having a seizure!)

7) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd0UAdpBNUg
(Inspiring, truly Inspiring!)

These are my picks, what are yours?


Start every day off with a smile and get it over with.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1454977 - 06/12/10 04:57 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: philosophyfan]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 820
babama Offline
500 Post Club Member
babama  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 820
Netherlands
I had to look that up to be sure

"Slang: an amateur or incompetent performer, esp. an actor who performs with showy exaggeration"

No to amateur or incompetent performer, yes to showy exaggeration in most cases.

#1455001 - 06/12/10 08:00 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: babama]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,271
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,271
New York City
The first three seem fine to me.

#1455019 - 06/12/10 09:24 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: pianoloverus]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 162
Chopinist Offline
Full Member
Chopinist  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 162
Meh. I expected these to all be amateurs, and it was a surprise to see Yundi Li and Valentina Lisitsa included in this list. (Maksim Mrvica ... not such a surprise.)

But I can't really find fault with most of these from a musical standpoint. I thought the boy in the first clip was really very good, even if his emoting was thoroughly over the top. But as long as kids are coached to integrate that kind of faux-expressiveness into the music, or see it in other performers and emulate it themselves, I don't expect the trend to change. We live in an age of indulgence, after all, not restraint.

Did the guy in #6 remind anybody else of Rod Blagojevich (another certified Master Thespian)? smile


"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1455028 - 06/12/10 09:46 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Chopinist]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,271
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,271
New York City
Originally Posted by Chopinist
But I can't really find fault with most of these from a musical standpoint. I thought the boy in the first clip was really very good, even if his emoting was thoroughly over the top. But as long as kids are coached to integrate that kind of faux-expressiveness into the music, or see it in other performers and emulate it themselves, I don't expect the trend to change. We live in an age of indulgence, after all, not restraint.
I really can't see the slightest example of over the top emoting from #1. He reminds me a little of Haochen Zhang, recent Van Cliburn winner, in terms of his degree of emoting. I also don't think that many young pianists are coached to do this or that it's faux expressiveness. I think more often than not young players are coached to reduce their expressive movements.

#1455030 - 06/12/10 09:49 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: philosophyfan]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,612
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Damon  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,612

1. You didn't have to pick on a kid did you?
2. It looks as if the producer thought he might get this on MTV.
3. What's wrong with this?
4. Number one probably watches this guy.
5. I'd pretty much like to slap this guy.
6. This one is weird enough that I'm not sure he's seen himself play.
7. How does he play with his elbows so much lower than his hands?

#1455033 - 06/12/10 09:56 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: pianoloverus]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 162
Chopinist Offline
Full Member
Chopinist  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I really can't see the slightest example of over the top emoting from #1. He reminds me a little of Haochen Zhang, recent Van Cliburn winner, in terms of his degree of emoting. I also don't think that many young pianists are coached to do this or that it's faux expressiveness. I think more often than not young players are coached to reduce their expressive movements.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. There's nothing that could convince me that such drama is authentic to a 10-year-old boy (never mind intrinsic to the music).


"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein
#1455034 - 06/12/10 09:57 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: philosophyfan]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Kreisler Offline
Kreisler  Offline


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted by philosophyfan
These are my picks, what are yours?


This is my pick. One of my idols. And I honestly wish I had half this guy's talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qblN-ILuiyQ


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
#1455042 - 06/12/10 10:07 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Kreisler]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,271
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,271
New York City
Originally Posted by Kreisler
Originally Posted by philosophyfan
These are my picks, what are yours?


This is my pick. One of my idols. And I honestly wish I had half this guy's talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qblN-ILuiyQ
I have seen Chico Youtube clips between 30 an 50 times. He seems to have a fairly small number of "tricks" in his playing, but I don't seem get tired of watching. I'm not really sure why this is! Maybe his personality is so appealing also?

#1455045 - 06/12/10 10:18 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: pianoloverus]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
jesseoffy Offline
Full Member
jesseoffy  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Replying to the first post: number one already has this as a habit... It seems that when Lang Lang became famous, a lot of people seemed to like his style. Personally, I can say pretty critical stuff about it but all I'm going with for now is:

Pianists are not actors - their finger are!


Chopin, Brahms, Schubert, Rachmaninov
#1455063 - 06/12/10 11:08 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: babama]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
philosophyfan Offline
Full Member
philosophyfan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by babama
I had to look that up to be sure
"Slang: an amateur or incompetent performer, esp. an actor who performs with showy exaggeration"
No to amateur or incompetent performer, yes to showy exaggeration in most cases.


Ham
Pronunciation: \ˈham\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English hamme, from Old English hamm; akin to Old High German hamma ham, Greek knēmē shinbone, Old Irish cnáim bone
Date: before 12th century

1 a : the hollow of the knee b : a buttock with its associated thigh —usually used in plural

2 : a cut of meat consisting of a thigh; especially : one from a hog

3 [short for hamfatter, from “The Ham-fat Man,” minstrel song] a : a showy performer; especially : an actor performing in an exaggerated theatrical style
b : a licensed operator of an amateur radio station

4 : a cushion used especially by tailors for pressing curved areas of garments
— ham adjective

Originally Posted by William Shakespeare
SCENE II. A hall in the castle.

Enter HAMLET and Players
HAMLET
Speak the speech, I pray you, as I pronounced it to
you, trippingly on the tongue: but if you mouth it,
as many of your players do, I had as lief the
town-crier spoke my lines. Nor do not saw the air
too much with your hand, thus, but use all gently;
for in the very torrent, tempest, and, as I may say,
the whirlwind of passion, you must acquire and beget
a temperance that may give it smoothness. O, it
offends me to the soul to hear a robustious
periwig-pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to
very rags, to split the ears of the groundlings, who
for the most part are capable of nothing but
inexplicable dumbshows and noise: I would have such
a fellow whipped for o'erdoing Termagant; it
out-herods Herod: pray you, avoid it.

First Player
I warrant your honour.

HAMLET
Be not too tame neither, but let your own discretion
be your tutor: suit the action to the word, the
word to the action; with this special o'erstep not
the modesty of nature: for any thing so overdone is
from the purpose of playing, whose end, both at the
first and now, was and is, to hold, as 'twere, the
mirror up to nature; to show virtue her own feature,
scorn her own image, and the very age and body of
the time his form and pressure. Now this overdone,
or come tardy off, though it make the unskilful
laugh, cannot but make the judicious grieve; the
censure of the which one must in your allowance
o'erweigh a whole theatre of others. O, there be
players that I have seen play, and heard others
praise, and that highly, not to speak it profanely,
that, neither having the accent of Christians nor
the gait of Christian, pagan, nor man, have so
strutted and bellowed that I have thought some of
nature's journeymen had made men and not made them
well, they imitated humanity so abominably.



Start every day off with a smile and get it over with.
#1455088 - 06/12/10 11:57 AM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Kreisler]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,353
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,353
New York
Originally Posted by Kreisler
This is my pick. One of my idols. And I honestly wish I had half this guy's talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qblN-ILuiyQ

Hey, you love Chico too? smile

I like how easily he got rid of the 'real' piano player. That guy must have been a moron. ha

P.S. I see that you're not thinking "ham" in a negative way. And from the several that he picked, I wasn't sure he was either.


"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
#1455123 - 06/12/10 01:11 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 635
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member
GeorgeB  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 635
Oh frown kissin didnt get mentioned?

#1455127 - 06/12/10 01:23 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Chopinist]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,353
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,353
New York
Originally Posted by Chopinist
....There's nothing that could convince me that such drama is authentic to a 10-year-old boy.....

You have to take into account that this is no ordinary 10-year-old boy (or whatever age he is). It seems that you're not.


"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
#1455144 - 06/12/10 01:47 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,451
gooddog Offline
5000 Post Club Member
gooddog  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,451
Seattle area, WA
The opening post seems a little unkind.

I love Chico too.


Best regards,

Deborah
#1455149 - 06/12/10 01:57 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: jesseoffy]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,701
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Pogorelich.  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,701
not somewhere over the rainbow
Bad picks.

Here's a great one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ8WP4YkGY0



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1455176 - 06/12/10 02:43 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Pogorelich.]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,353
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,353
New York
Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Bad picks.

Here's a great one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ8WP4YkGY0

No no.....here's a better version.


"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
#1455177 - 06/12/10 02:44 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: GeorgeB]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
philosophyfan Offline
Full Member
philosophyfan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by EtudeBasher
Oh frown kissin didnt get mentioned?


8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sPxr539mts
(I can't tell what's worse, his acting or his hair)


Start every day off with a smile and get it over with.
#1455183 - 06/12/10 02:50 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: philosophyfan]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419
LaReginadellaNotte Offline
Full Member
LaReginadellaNotte  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419
I agree that employing over-the-top gestures and facial expressions during performance is not desirable. Horowitz was opposed to that, as he believed that you should express the emotion through the music, not through facial expressions.


Recent Repertoire:
Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7ao
Bach: Partita #2 in c minor
Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata")
Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12
Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor
Suggestion diabolique
#1455184 - 06/12/10 02:53 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: LaReginadellaNotte]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,353
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,353
New York
Dunno about that......what about this: ha

[Linked Image]

(just kidding, just kidding!)


"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
#1455191 - 06/12/10 03:01 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: philosophyfan]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
This one takes the cake (and makes me almost pee my pants every time I watch it). O Holy Night



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1455209 - 06/12/10 03:43 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: philosophyfan]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,271
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,271
New York City
Originally Posted by philosophyfan
Originally Posted by EtudeBasher
Oh frown kissin didnt get mentioned?


8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sPxr539mts
(I can't tell what's worse, his acting or his hair)
Not sure about his hair(don't care), but Kissin isn't "acting". He's far too serious a musician to do that. Kissin almost always moves his body in a circle while playing(as do some other terrific pianists)...I never gave it a second thought. His facial expressions(nothing much in the particular video you gave)are really only noticable in close up camera views at an angle not really seen by audience members who see him mostly in profile.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/12/10 03:48 PM.
#1455227 - 06/12/10 04:28 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 162
Chopinist Offline
Full Member
Chopinist  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 162
nm


"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein
#1455228 - 06/12/10 04:30 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Chopinist]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Chopinist
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Chopinist
....There's nothing that could convince me that such drama is authentic to a 10-year-old boy.....

You have to take into account that this is no ordinary 10-year-old boy (or whatever age he is). It seems that you're not.

You're right! But I was one once ... and no ordinary one either.


You were extra ordinary? =p



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1455229 - 06/12/10 04:31 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: stores]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 162
Chopinist Offline
Full Member
Chopinist  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 162
nm


"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein
#1455231 - 06/12/10 04:32 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Chopinist]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 207
Butters109 Offline
Full Member
Butters109  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 207
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKlYaygCek

This is one of the few times where I've actually thought the "acting" was appropriate and almost added something to the music. It's like he's having a conversation with the music.

#1455242 - 06/12/10 04:50 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Chopinist]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Chopinist
nm


That's ok, I'm laughing for you.=p



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1455250 - 06/12/10 05:03 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: pianoloverus]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
philosophyfan Offline
Full Member
philosophyfan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Kissin isn't "acting". He's far too serious a musician to do that. Kissin almost always moves his body in a circle while playing(as do some other terrific pianists)...I never gave it a second thought. His facial expressions(nothing much in the particular video you gave)are really only noticable in close up camera views at an angle not really seen by audience members who see him mostly in profile.


I would call attention to
0:09, 1:17, and 4:36 of the Kissin video. I think the term for these are microexpressions.


Start every day off with a smile and get it over with.
#1455255 - 06/12/10 05:14 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Pogorelich.]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,612
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Damon  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,612

#1455260 - 06/12/10 05:20 PM Re: You Tube's biggest Hams [Re: Damon]  
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,451
gooddog Offline
5000 Post Club Member
gooddog  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,451
Seattle area, WA
Damon, your post is even funnier with the sound off!


Best regards,

Deborah
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
digital v vst v real
by jon1234. 05/30/17 06:37 AM
Kawai Logo Sticker
by PandaR1. 05/30/17 06:20 AM
Kawai KS-5F
by maki6664. 05/29/17 08:37 PM
Acousticsamples C7 $49
by bsntn99. 05/29/17 06:03 PM
Help with big chords in Liszt Mephisto Waltz no.1
by LawlAoux. 05/29/17 04:49 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,966
Posts2,631,140
Members87,925
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0