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Back in April, I claimed to have "improved Beethoven" in the thread "Would You Do It?" Toward the end of the discussion, it went something like this:






Well, the weather and my piano have not been cooperating--the humidity is wreaking havoc with my dampers. So I dove into the archives (thanks for the idea, carey!) and got a recording I made back in December '09 of Beethoven's Sonata Op. 13, 2nd movement to "prove" my point. I decided to post it here instead of Member Recordings, since the discussion started out here.

It was a fun discussion. MarkC was his usual affable self. Stores told me I should wake up and smell the coffee! I present this recording in the spirit of fun as well.

A few disclaimers:

First, the opening statement is far more "expository" than I would like. I meant to make it more introspective, not so dry. The rest of the playing is about as good as I can get it, and is a true expression of the way I hear the piece. I am not a seasoned performer like so many here in Pianist Corner. However, since I believe that those who make assertions should "put up or shut up," here it is. Second, the "improvement" is a subtle one. I did not re-write a melody line or move an important development or anything like that.

So, what do you think? Aside from the playing, did I improve Beethoven? Can you even tell what I did?

Beethoven Op.13 Sonata Pathetique, 2nd movement

I hope you enjoy it, anyway.

--Andy

P.S. This is my Lester spinet in ET. I still would like to record this in EBVT III, then we can compare temperaments! I am still practicing the Bagatelle in question, and will post it when it's ready, if it ever dries out around here and I can play again!

OK, I listened.

I didn't follow with the score, just listened to see if I noticed anything.

I noticed a few things but I'm doubting those are what you meant. The only thing I noticed that I might call a "change" [edit: please ignore this next thing -- it's wrong] is that you played the last 2 chords too soon -- basically 'double' too soon. But I would guess you didn't know you were doing that. If that's the change/improvement you mean, I'd have to disagree. It doesn't sound good, even aside from not being right.

BTW......a friend of mine who doesn't really play the piano learned the 1st movement of the Moonlight Sonata, note by note, and can play though it pretty well. But he did that exact same thing with the last two chords of that piece -- and even after it was pointed out to him, he was so used to the "wrong" way that he either couldn't correct it or just refused. I hope you won't do the same thing with this ending.

I noticed a couple of other things about rhythm but had a definite feeling you didn't do those things on purpose and that those weren't what you meant. Also you seemed to make some changes with articulation, like playing some notes in a pointed kind of way -- but I don't think that's what you mean either.

So I don't know. I'm curious to know what you did mean, but even without knowing, I don't find it hard to stick my neck out and say it's extremely doubtful that you're "improving" anything. But I personally still wouldn't try to stop you from whatever it is. I'm for people doing their thing, even if it stinks. I mean, I do.

Ha-ha-ha! Mark!

Thanks for listening!

The ending double too soon? My score (Schirmer, sorry) has 16th notes and 16th rests as the first four indications in the last measure, with a fermata on the last note. Unless some editor changed something, I think it's what Beethoven meant!

Articulation is expression, as far as I'm concerned. Rhythm? I'm interested. What did you hear?

The fact that nothing stuck out at you as you did not follow the score, means to me that, at least, I did not damage Beethoven, even if my playing is hash! Did it really stink?

(No, definitely didn't stink.
I said "even if.")

And you're RIGHT about the rhythm of the last measure!!!
My apologies!!!

I'm thinking that I must have played it wrong when I played the piece, but I probably didn't or else my teacher would have screamed.

Affable as always! you ROCK!

(Make sure you see my edit of that last post.....I added some stuff that I'm sure you'll like.)

Actually, I used to play the last measure the way you wanted to hear it, too. But, then, when I was puzzling over the piece, I looked at the last measure, noticed it, and looked at the character of the last four measures. That's when I heard what Beethoven meant there. Your teacher probably didn't notice it, either--because of the Moonlight Sonata syndrome.

I guarantee you that my teacher would have noticed it.
That means I must have played it right, despite 'Moonlight Sonata Syndrome.'

BTW........great job on that phrase.

"Aside from the playing" probably means that I need not comment on the voicing of the internal accompaniment figures?

The only thing I (thought I) heard was a doubling of the bass line with the addition of a lower octave at measure 53; I couldn't tell whether it started at measure 51 or not - that would make sense, if one were doing that - but I certainly think I heard octaves in the bass at measure 53. Other than that, I heard no differences from the score.

Regards,

The things I noticed that differed from my Robert Taub edition were mostly dynamic changes and articulation changes that I don't think were intentional or are maybe different in your edition compared to Taub. If you played dynamics that were intentionally different from what's marked in your edition, I think you should ask yourself why. If you think that your edition is true to Beethoven do you think you can improve on Beethoven's dynamic markings?

By far the most important thing I have to to say is that the inner voices, especially when the the theme returns with triplets, are too loud.

I'd do you the favor of listening, but whatever you've done hasn't improved what Beethoven penned and I'd be willing to bet my life savings on that. As a result, there's really no reason for me TO listen. No offense, nor do I mean to sound rude...I'm just not interested.

--Andy

BruceD:
Correct as usual! Here's what I did:



I added octave lower echo notes in the bass in measures 51 and 52 and doubled the bass with octaves in 53. That's the "improvement." LOL! I know, I know, it's stupid! But I do have reasons for why I think it works. Pianoloverus, I made a conscious artistic decision to play that section "Broadly," not quietly.

It seems to me that, in this movement, there is much introspection and reflection going on, and a poingant "coming to terms" with some sorrow or loss that is over but not done with--still very much in force in the soul. At the end of the minor section of the second theme, as it transitions to major, there is to me a sense of "overcoming." As though the emotional turmoil is finally being put to rest, with "good riddance." Measures 48, 49, and 50 are the final push to overcome the last of the nagging turmoil that has plagued the soul. Then comes an expansive sense of relief in realizing the release. That is why I decided to play measures 51, 52, 53 and 54 "Broadly," to convey the expanse of the release. I added the echo notes and the octaves to further convey the sense of wide open space--that huge sense of freedom--that comes with forgiveness/acceptance/letting go. What follows is a calm, joyous re-iteration of the theme, with a spritely "spring in the step" finish, as a complete walk-away from the past.

So, whether that's Beethoven, or not, it still seems to me to be in character with Beethoven. In my score, there is a footnote by the editors about a change in a cresendo mark from the original that occurs toward the very end of the movment. Who made the change? It doesn't say, but it is implied that it wasn't Beethoven. So what other changes were made in the markings, dynamics or otherwise, that aren't footnoted? Hmm. Certainly, Schirmer is not the definitive edition. But it is what I have to work with...

Upon listening to this again after hearing you comments: I agree about the concerns with the sloppy voicing. The articulation was mostly intentional. As to voicing and articulation, that's about as much control as I can muster at this point. BruceD, I would welcome any thoughts you care to share about the "playing," posted publicly or by pm. If you think it would benefit anybody to share it here, that's fine with me!

How do you like your seminar so far, MarkC?

--Andy

P.S. I have another question about this movement, but I'll ask it a little later. Thanks, everyone!

Yes, I heard the bass notes also in that recording - I think that was the most intentional change that stood out. The few other ares I noticed seemed to be just inerpretational, not rewriting or adding like the bass doubling. I did like how it sounded, though.

I'm not sure if it improved it or not, at this moment - I think both versions (original and yours) are fair versions, and if your bass-doubling was present in the original, it wouldn't seem that out of the ordinary.
I will say that Beethoven can definately be improved in places (I do not feel he is a god on a pedestal, like some people, and infallible - that's just babytalk and brainless worship), and pianists do it all the time, knowingly or unknowingly: very few people play his pieces as if they are playing an older piano-forte, and up until the Hammerklavier, this was a fine instrument for Beethoven. Pianists commonly double bass notes to make up for the smaller keyboard range, add an ornament here and there, all kinds of stuff.
Beethoven himself, at one point, wanted to 'redo' all his piano works to take into account the extended range of the newer pianos - so he didn't really think his works were gospel truth all the time, either.

But we still have people claiming Beethoven was a divinely inspired angel, or a pure genius incapable of mistakes or regrets or new ideas, slavishly bearing the flag of unchanging dogma, unchanging music, a dead musical idea that hits the wall. He changed so much through his life, musically, how could anyone possibly say that every single Sonata he wrote was PERFECT? Every composer, if they are worth their salt, regrets every previous composition! How many people want to hear crap they composed 10 years ago, when they considered themselves less musically developed? Bah.

I think it sounded great, though! If Busoni can get away with helping Bach jump to the piano, I think you're doing just fine.

Bah! I think Beethoven answers best with, "What I sh*t is better than anything you could ever think up". Obviously, that's not directed at your compositional capabilities (though it may as well be), but, clearly Ludwig considered his work more than worthy and rightly so. If he can be improved upon then why haven't we heard it from anyone? Why not you, since you feel in places there is room for improvement?

What's a fair version?

I think the overwhelming majority of professional pianists, at least for the last 60+ years, play Beethoven without any changes to the notes. Playing Beethoven on a modern piano without trying to make it sound like an earlier version is quite different IMO. Where did you get the idea that Beethoven was thinking of rewriting all his piano works to take into account the extended range of the piano?

I think many/most would agree that Beethoven was one of the very greatest composers in Western music and that he was a musical genius. Just because a composer's style changes doesn't mean his earlier works are inferior. I find the idea that a composer should regret his previous compositions outrageous to put it mildly.

Busoni was a musical genius and one of the greatest pianists of his era. So I think what applies for him doesn't apply to an amateur at PW. Despite this, his changes to the Bach keybaord works for harpsichord or clavichord are virtually ignored so I don't think it can be said he helped Bach "jump to the piano". I would put his transcriptions of Bach organ or violin works in a completely different category as they are rewritten for a different instrument.

I really hate that quote. What is the evidence that Beethoven actually said it? I looked around awhile, and found almost none. (By contrast, when I looked for other famous Beethoven quotes (such as "What do I care for your miserable fiddle when the spirit moves me"), there was plenty of easily available corroborating evidence online.)

-J

I do stuff like this with the Franck sonata or rach 2nd sonata.. I find there's more freedom with romantic music but classical, not so much..

Lang Lang adds stuff to Mozart two piano sonata and it made me want to throw something at him haha

I don't think it's very logical to begin it quite where he did. I think it makes more sense if you begin it a half measure later.

I basically agree. I think we need to be EXTREMELY modest and restrained about tinkering, and I would always be immediately biased against the soundness of any such change (even before hearing it) unless it came from an extremely expert performer or musicologist. Nothing against the OP -- I think I'm not 'good enough' to contemplate it either, and I don't know who I think would be.