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let off regulation #1166737
03/22/09 08:21 AM
03/22/09 08:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 147
Switzerland
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insanity Offline OP
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After having read quite a lot about piano regulation in this forum and elsewere, I was wondering if there were any negative consequences if I regulated my piano's (S&S Hamburg B) let off nearer to the string than it is now.
I have been experimenting on two notes for now. When the let off is nearer to the strings, I seem to be able to depress the key slower than before and still get a tone. Additionally when trilling in piano/pianissimo less notes are left out because the jack did not have space to get under the knuckle (probably because I don't release the key enough).

Naturally if the let off is too close to the string, when playing fortissimo the sound is muted because the hammer is to close.
I think I read on this forum, that on concert instruments let off is very small, but this can make the hammers stick?

1. Does anything speak against myself regulating the piano to a let off closer to the strings?
2. If I regulate only the Let-off regulating screw, is there any other adjustment that would need to be made in consequence?

Thanks for your help



Hamburg Steinway B
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Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1166738
03/22/09 08:31 AM
03/22/09 08:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
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Switzerland
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insanity Offline OP
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I just thought about the issue a bit more

Maybe I would have to adjust either the drop screw and/or repetition lever screw?


Hamburg Steinway B
Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1166740
03/22/09 08:35 AM
03/22/09 08:35 AM
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Dave Stahl Offline
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I wouldn't trying ANY regulation before watching someone do it, or at the very least, reading and studying full regulation procedure. It sounds as if there are other regulation issues that need to be addressed before anyone sets the let off distance.

Doing this yourself probably won't cause any permanent damage to your piano, but it WILL make it more time-consuming--and expensive--when the tech comes out, because of what he'll have to undo before he gets started.

I'm not saying that pianists shouldn't know how to regulate their actions, but you can get into big trouble if you don't know the interrelationships of the part functions.


Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
http://dstahlpiano.net
Re: let off regulation [Re: Dave Stahl] #1166744
03/22/09 08:55 AM
03/22/09 08:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
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Switzerland
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As I said, I have only been experimenting with two notes (no big deal)
Does anyone know where I could get a manual for the regulating procedure of the Hamburg Steinway action?
Or a book which explains the pros and cons of action adjustments and how to do it?


Hamburg Steinway B
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Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1166763
03/22/09 09:45 AM
03/22/09 09:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Lowell MA
The book you speak of will only provide technical specs for the design.

The information you are looking for rests in the experience of having regulated many different actions for many different people.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: let off regulation [Re: Larry Buck] #1166772
03/22/09 10:14 AM
03/22/09 10:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
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San Francisco
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Peter Sumner- Piano Technician Offline
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It's a bit like asking a Ferrari mechanic if he can show you how to clean out and service the fuel injectors.
It isn't the act of setting the let off distance that is the issue...it is the cycle of events that this seemingly innocuous adjustment effects.
This highlights the issue of amateur and enthusiastic amateurs fiddling with a complex mechanism capable of the ultimate in performance in the right hands.
Understand the action..yes, please understand the action...but be bright enough to leave the bloody thing alone.
There is a seemingly black hole out there regarding the detail that can be achieved, due, in part, to the lack of ability of many in the profession...
You have an amazing instrument there...
Perhaps you can share with us the reason you are getting in there?

I don't mean to sound harsh here....but you need to know this.


Peter Sumner
Concert Piano Technician


Re: let off regulation [Re: Peter Sumner- Piano Technician] #1166795
03/22/09 11:33 AM
03/22/09 11:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Lowell MA
Insanity,

The book will tell you if certain tech specs are in place.
And, your piano may very well be off in those basics and actually be the reason you need to address regulation.

Coordinating let off, drop, checking, rep spring tension, after touch with your particular style of playing is what requires the experience.

Peter, there are still techs gaining that experience. Under the bus that fast???

Personally, after 34 years, there are still times I refer clients to other techs for the right answers. Given the subjective nature of the piano, Music, peoples personality ... sometimes another point of view is necessary or, say, another technicians personality will better relate to the piano player.

Back to insanity ...

A critical part of let off will repetition spring tension and drop working together. Depending on your needs for repetition you will want to pay attention to checking and after touch. Generally the more your need for repetition the tighter your spring will be, the more drop you will have, the higher you will check and you will want to minimize after touch.

In general,this diverges from being able to play lightly.

To play lightly, you will want to let off close, have slightly less drop to ease the "nudge" of escapement, reduce repetition spring tension to prevent bobbling, although drop will influence bobbling ...

Repetition springs are tricky to adjust. There is a right way and a wrong way.
On that alone you will have to adjust springs on several actions before you have a feel for it.

All of these things work together and it is the balance of all and each of these adjustments working together that account for the feel of the action.

Hiring an experienced tech to regulate with you will help. It will be money well spent.

I hear the skiing in Switzerland is great .... I ski ...





"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: let off regulation [Re: Larry Buck] #1166799
03/22/09 11:46 AM
03/22/09 11:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 147
Switzerland
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insanity Offline OP
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Switzerland
Thank you all for your answers.
I can understand the meaning of Peter Sumners posts. I don't take it personally at all. I guess he is talking from many years of experience with customers.

To answer the question WHY DO I WANT TO GET IN THERE?
1. Curiosity
2. Because I have an unstoppable urge to improve everything.3
3. Because I know where the scews are smile
4. Because I think I have not yet reached optimal performance
5. Because I am a "do it yourself" type of man. If you do something yourself, you learn, you know what has been done, you know how to do it, you can do it exactely as you like, you will probably do it more carefully than many others (not all of course).
6. I think I am intelligent and careful enough to try and learn from error.

Indeed I have a very good technician (who I found through this forum). But I wont see him until the next tuning appointment which is in half a year or so.

If I know what I'm talking about, it will be much easier to discuss what is possible and not with my tech.

Yes Switzerland is great for skiing, but I don't ski, I play the piano smile


Hamburg Steinway B
Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1166812
03/22/09 12:26 PM
03/22/09 12:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Now no offense or anything there but for me I would be wanting to work on your #2 a bit. Not everything in this world needs improvement…. Maybe take your #6 and apply it to your #2?

How about a couple of books from the library first? Or maybe some others available on-line for purchase?

If you are a DIY’er like you claim would you not want to learn about ALL of the adjustments previous to changing any one of them?


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1166815
03/22/09 12:33 PM
03/22/09 12:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Lowell MA
Personally, I encourage everyone who is interested in working on their own piano to do it.

There is no need to defend your interest or your ability.

My comments were intended to provide perspective for a beginning, They were not meant to act as any type of discouragement in any way.

Finally, I believe it IS possible to comment and help without making disparaging remarks.

Tech specs for regulation are available everywhere.
Reblitz
PTG resources

I would email Chad at Steinway NY. There may be a .pdf version he can provide. Kent Webb is another good resource in NY.

I would be happy to get the email addresses for you, It is likely they are listed on Steinway's web site.

Steinway Germany might have have a .pdf they can email or a publication you can purchase.

Personally, I would contact both of them and ask.

I was watching a High Def travel channel early this morning. Skiing in the Swiss Alps. beautiful country.


Last edited by Larry Buck; 03/22/09 12:33 PM. Reason: Grammar

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: let off regulation [Re: Larry Buck] #1166822
03/22/09 12:46 PM
03/22/09 12:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 147
Switzerland
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insanity Offline OP
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I just contacted Steinway Hamburg via Email. Hopefully they can send me something useful.


Hamburg Steinway B
Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1166823
03/22/09 12:48 PM
03/22/09 12:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Good stuff. Always handy to have a complete picture previous to changing anything. Then you will have a reference to go to if you find yourself in a problem or two.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: let off regulation [Re: Larry Buck] #1166845
03/22/09 01:57 PM
03/22/09 01:57 PM
Joined: May 2007
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Dave Stahl Offline
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Larry,

There is indeed great skiing in Switzerland! My first wife was Swiss. For a wedding present, one of her uncles got us room in Zermatt for a week one February. We had a view of the Matterhorn from the window. It was awesome.

Insanity,

I'd be happy to come help you learn grand regulation for a ticket to Switzerland... grin


Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
http://dstahlpiano.net
Re: let off regulation [Re: Dave Stahl] #1166879
03/22/09 03:32 PM
03/22/09 03:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 147
Switzerland
I
insanity Offline OP
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Switzerland
Originally Posted by Dave Stahl
Larry,

There is indeed great skiing in Switzerland! My first wife was Swiss. For a wedding present, one of her uncles got us room in Zermatt for a week one February. We had a view of the Matterhorn from the window. It was awesome.

Insanity,

I'd be happy to come help you learn grand regulation for a ticket to Switzerland... grin


If I had the spare money, I would gladly invite you.


Hamburg Steinway B
Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1166906
03/22/09 04:33 PM
03/22/09 04:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Lowell MA
Originally Posted by insanity
I just thought about the issue a bit more

Maybe I would have to adjust either the drop screw and/or repetition lever screw?


Yes, It is likely, though, depending on what is there, maybe not.

The drop screw should pick up on the repetition lever ever so slightly before the jack toe on the let off button. How much depends on the feel you want. Other adjustments will coordinate with this one.

Last edited by Larry Buck; 03/22/09 04:34 PM. Reason: content accuracy

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: let off regulation [Re: Larry Buck] #1166954
03/22/09 07:04 PM
03/22/09 07:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Ron Alexander Offline
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Tinkering with your piano action without some research and hands on training will likely accomplish little, and could actually create some action issues, that will require a call to your piano technician before your next scheduled tuning.

My recommendation, if you are serious about learning to do some work on your piano would be to invest in some books, and even attend some classes taught regionally by the Piano Technicians Guild. If your Tech is not a member, I would recommend you find a Tech who is. He can tell you all about it.

Last edited by Ron Alexander; 03/22/09 07:30 PM.

-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician
Re: let off regulation [Re: Ron Alexander] #1166956
03/22/09 07:07 PM
03/22/09 07:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Horowitzian Offline
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Hey Ron, the OP is in Switzerland. Dunno if the PTG gets out that far. wink


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: let off regulation [Re: Ron Alexander] #1166961
03/22/09 07:12 PM
03/22/09 07:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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If the rest of the action is regulated incorrectly and let off is to close, it is possible to break off the jack tenders. I've seen it happen many times before.

I would recommend going to the PTG website and looking around for information there to assist you. http://ptg.org/

Horowitzian, we posted together. They could mail things of interest there however...

Last edited by Jerry Groot RPT; 03/22/09 07:14 PM.

Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: let off regulation [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1166963
03/22/09 07:14 PM
03/22/09 07:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
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Horowitzian Offline
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grin I'm sure they could. blush


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: let off regulation [Re: Horowitzian] #1166973
03/22/09 07:36 PM
03/22/09 07:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Ron Alexander Offline
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Okay, sorry I did not check location. There's a European Tech organization. Maybe they would be willing to help a DIY'er.

On a more serious note, I recently had the opportunity to thumb through Carl-Johan Forss' book on Upright and Grand Regulation. I have never seen a more comprehensive book on the subject. Many people have viewed this author's books as mere textbooks. But this one at least, would be a good book to have on hand, whether one be an experienced tech or a beginner. They are pricey, but I plan to purchase as soon as my PTG exam expenses have been met.


-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician
Re: let off regulation [Re: Ron Alexander] #1167260
03/23/09 10:58 AM
03/23/09 10:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 147
Switzerland
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insanity Offline OP
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Switzerland
I'm still awaiting the answer from Steinway. May someone here can answer some questions.

It is about raising or lowering the capstan the regulate hammer travel and aftertouch.
1. Is the goal of rising and lowering the capstan to get all hammers prefectely in line or is it more important to get exactely the same amount of aftertouch on every key?
2. Supposing all other adjustments of the action are in order. Should the key be lined up perfectly when aftertouch is set equal on all keys (I guess it should - and therefore if it is not possible, other adjustments like letoff or keydip need to be made?)
3. What would the positive or negative effects be, if the capstan were raised a bit higher than normal? Of course aftertouch would increase - but else?
4. Is aftertouch just a matter of personal preference? (within certain limits)?
5. Somewhere I read that increasing capstan height, and therefore reducing the hammer blow distance, would be useful to make a loud piano a little quieter. At the cost of increased aftertouch. Would anyone recommend this or should one focus on voicing the hammers a bit less powerful?

Thanks


Hamburg Steinway B
Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1167315
03/23/09 01:00 PM
03/23/09 01:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
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Brooklyn, NY
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Zeno Wood Offline
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If you're trying to figure out the interaction between all these different regulation adjustments, the best thing to do is get yourself a grand action model. Then get the Reblitz book, like Larry said, and go crazy. What's nice about an action model is that everything is a lot more visible and accessible, and you don't have to pull/push the whole keyboard around each time you want to change something.

Good luck, and have fun.


Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College
Re: let off regulation [Re: Zeno Wood] #1167325
03/23/09 01:19 PM
03/23/09 01:19 PM
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Posts: 26,692
Oakland
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It is futile to try to understand how an action works without looking at one. It is foolish to try to modify an action from the published specifications until one has set enough of them to those specifications and understands the relationship between the all the parts and their adjustments.

This is like trying to learn to cut gems and starting with a flawless 5 carat diamond.


Semipro Tech
Re: let off regulation [Re: BDB] #1167336
03/23/09 01:30 PM
03/23/09 01:30 PM
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Brooklyn, NY
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An action model will also allow you to mess around and still have your Hamburg Steinway in playing condition...


Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College
Re: let off regulation [Re: Zeno Wood] #1167401
03/23/09 03:27 PM
03/23/09 03:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 147
Switzerland
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insanity Offline OP
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I really appreciate your concern of my Steinway not being in playable condition after me touching it smile

My action model is one key of my Piano. Lowest or highest... never used anyway.

Yesterday I spend a lot of time experimenting. IMHO best way to learn is if you can feel how it feels if something is wrong.
Due to these experiments I am now fully aware what letoff actually is.
I think my questions above show that. I have also read a long post of Bill Bremer about regulation.
Therefore I would really be grateful if someone expressed their thoughts - especially about 4. and 5.


Hamburg Steinway B
Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1167460
03/23/09 05:02 PM
03/23/09 05:02 PM
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Olympia, WA
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Item 4: Yes. Some artists prefer minimal and others more. As Jerry mentioned earlier, the upper limit is going to be when the top of the jack touches the felt in the repetition lever window.

Item 5: If you want to make the piano a little quieter by raising the hammer line, do it by placing some thin felt under the thick felt that the back of the keys rest on. This will raise the hammers while at the same time lowering the key dip. This means you will end up with the same aftertouch.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: let off regulation [Re: insanity] #1167471
03/23/09 05:14 PM
03/23/09 05:14 PM
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Quote
I have also read a long post of Bill Bremer about regulation.
Good. Now forget everything in his post, and get a copy of Steinway's CD, or something similar.

Quote
Therefore I would really be grateful if someone expressed their thoughts...
My thoughts are that if you have to ask questions like these, if you do not understand the value of experience, you should not be fooling around with this.


Semipro Tech
Re: let off regulation [Re: BDB] #1167606
03/23/09 09:32 PM
03/23/09 09:32 PM
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"Indeed I have a very good technician (who I found through this forum). But I wont see him until the next tuning appointment which is in half a year or so."


Why wait for your next tuning visit from your tech? Call him/her and ask for an evaluation of your action regulation against S&S spefications. If you want a different feel-touch-sound-etc-etc perhaps they can take care of your needs.

The care and feeding of a Hamburg "B" should not be in untrained hands.

Just my 48 years of $.02 opinions!


Retired industry professional.
Re: let off regulation [Re: wesquire] #1167649
03/23/09 10:51 PM
03/23/09 10:51 PM
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I agree with Wesquire. I don't want to discourage you from experimenting with the action, but the fact is, a visit from your tech will accomplish a couple of things: first, you'll be guaranteed will be done right. Second, you'll be able to watch a skilled technician (I'm assuming this is the case), and hopefully ask questions about what he's doing. You have far more to gain than to lose from this approach. Give him a call. Most techs like getting a break from tuning from time to time.


Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
http://dstahlpiano.net
Re: let off regulation [Re: Dave Stahl] #1450729
06/05/10 09:36 AM
06/05/10 09:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 173
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline
Full Member
jinorden  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 173
Sweden
Hi Insanity,
It can be done.
' I get what you say. I'm a pianist, and also want to control the way my piano responds. Don't want to explain what I want in difuse metaphores, get something else, pay a lot, and get the ''that's all you can get from this piano unless you want to replace parts, and pay me even more.
But you need a lot of time, and some homemade tools, concentration and going slowly, it's easy to cause damage when regulating, as it's tight, and while turning one thing with a wire rod, you can bend or break something else around. The same with taking out the action, easy to break hammers by pressing keys inadvertently while dragging it out of the piano. Or trip while carrying it to a table, because of that stupid shoe or pencil you forgot on the floor.
I had a tech regulate my Steinway. Payed 1100 dollars worth of swedish crowns, and I got back my Hamburg O 1929 with keys resting on cushions in lower region, many keys no drop at all, so I could press upwards, but hammer would never fall back. Strike distance 50-51 mm. The jacks were aligned wrong, too backwards, away from the hammer, so the line that should be aligned with side of the knuckle core was 1 mm before the other side of the core. Jack tip sometimes lower than rep lever, as it should, sometimes not. Hammer line looked like small waves on a lake. My opinion, he did nothing, just filed and needled hammers to change the sound, so I get the impression work was done on the instrument.
So much for SOME techs.
The reason I was not happy with the action was, too light, uneaven, hard to control, an overall feeling that something or everything is wrong. The sound was ok, not amazing, but good.
What I did was to read on internet everything I could about regulation, and it's not easy to find, as all keywords return millions of adds, but very little usefull information. Everybody sells something, very few want to share. Bad for business, I pay more gladly to someone who I perceive as generous. Maybe an european thing, I don't know.
Anyway, I for one will never hire anyone to do anything on my piano. You know why? Cause now I know that a real regulation, voicing job can't be bought. If someone would really put the time and care to do it right, would cost a fortune. Probably 3-4 times more than normal or average price. So that's why someone with great experience, would go fast throu the motions, get it as playable as possible in the acceptable timeframe, get the money and off to the next job. Which is as it should be, no one can expect to get more than what they pay for, and you can't pay a real regulation. Unless you're Horowitz, or Gould, and you practically own the guy.
I read and read, and I got Reblitz, and another one by a german, and after 2 months of documentation I got the action out. It's when I discovered what was ''done'' on my piano.
I feel that I still don't know anything about it, but I know enough to not do any damage. Everything I did is in the second section from the left, and it's 100 times better.
This is what I did:
first I I raised the hammers by adjusting capstans, to 44,5 mm. Later, adjusting the jacks so they would be lower than the balance rail, I saw it affects the hammer line, so I redone the capstan regulation. By this, the shanks were not on the cushions anymore but 6-7 mm higher.
Next, I put the let off to 1 mm or a tiny bit more.
Next, the drop, another 1,5 mm. This made some hammers to doublestrike. I lowered drop, and it didn't anymore.
Last, I adjusted the jacks in the right line with knuckles. I discovered that because of wear of the leather, it works better repetitionwise if it's not exactly on, like in the books, but a bit off, don't remember in what direction. I did it by going 1/8 turn in different directions until I got the best repetition.
Now, there are things I took for granted, or I checked summarily.
1. Keydip. It's 10mm, and I don't bother with it. For now.
2. Weigh of keys. It's what it is, I didn't change parts, so it shouldn't change
3. Springs. Not to temper with,especially if they are the type without a tension regulating screw.
4. Pins, felts etc. Some wear is compensated through adjustments, the rest is the
way it is, I'm not renovating the thing.
4. Geometry (when replacing parts etc), bedding the action, dampers, all this and much more, over the head of me and other amateurs. Could try some, but it will take a month each, and the results, probably an unplayable instrument.
5.
6. .....
All this I take for granted, and I just work with capstans for strike distance, let off, drop, jack alignment and position in the window.

Another thing I didn't try, as it's not needed, is the backchecks. It works, same levels of checking, and the springs push back after slight release. After I finish regulating whole piano, I'll look closer at this.
VOICING Don't even dream of it. That's rocket science. Not even some ''experienced techs'' know much about it. It's not my intention to offend anyone on this forum, as I know nothing about any particular ones work. Each and everyone could be one of the best in the world. I'm speaking generally, of the thousands of local techs in each little town (or big), doing some work on the local church's piano, and even those employed of piano dealers, to maintain and repair their stocks.
I listened to some so called beautiful pianos for sale, renovated or restored to ''original condition'' . Some, many, sound awful. Wouldn't buy!
Been in showrooms with overhauled pianos that are so poor that I wouldn't pay half price. And so on, and so on.

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