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So because I failed so miserably last summer with Chopin's etude Op. 10, no. 1, I've decided this summer to tackle the double thirds etude (Op. 25 no. 6) (Plus my left arm is STILL bothering me so the fact that these etudes really only work right hand technique makes me a little less depressed that I'm not practicing two hands. )

Anyways, I have a couple questions.
First, in ms. 11 the fingering I'm using in the first beat is (42)-(31)-(53)-(42). Does the thumb remain on the B while (53) move over the thumb, or do both the 3rd finger and thumb get released so that the hand shifts to the next position? I've tried it both ways, and am leaning towards keeping the thumb on the keys while making sure the hand only moves laterally across the thumb, without rotating. I found the rotation of the forearm makes the next thirds come out unevenly. Does this sound right?

My second question is just a general question on getting the etude up to speed. I currently have the first couple pages at ~80-85/bpm/quarter note. My general method for practicing a technically challenging piece is to isolate the spots that are not technically clean, and practice those many times in various rhythms and tempos. For this etude that often means practicing just two or three consecutive notes. At the same time I am watching my hands to make sure I am making the most efficient motion possible. Then, after many repetitions using varying speeds and rhythms, I try to put it together with the rest of the measure. Here I usually see how fast I can make it without being sloppy. If I find something is sloppy, then I go back to my isolated practice. I'm wondering if this is not a good method, since I am always trying to get the tempo faster. Sometimes I find I've gone too far and have to go back to practicing at slower tempos.

Should I stay at a certain tempo for a few days/weeks for things to "settle in"?

Thanks!

If op.10/1 posed troubles, welcome to op.25/6, it's even worse, haha, ok, the fingering you mentioned is the one I use, it will work in the end, about speed, ah, that is a different matter, to get to minim 69 as indicated, put it out of your head, think only of playing steadily and comfortabely, like a nice eveningstroll, don't rush things, take your time, it'll take at least half a year to get some serious speed, this is one of the most difficult études ever written, same league as Feux follets, practise slowly and with strong and well articulated righthandfingers, staccato,legato, maybe rhythmic variants, I don't like those too much though, and try to think that thirds are fun and easy....good luck!

Just to make sure you realize: you picked probably the hardest of all the Chopin etudes.

You don't mention which edition you're using, and I'm curious if there's an editor whose fingerings you find especially reliable and congenial for Chopin. It's an important consideration, especially where (as in this etude) there are many possible variants for each of the types of figuration employed.

The Cortot edition is often mentioned with praise. I don't find his specific fingering preferences particularly sensible or comfortable for myself, but he does a very thorough job of surveying exhaustively the plausible alternatives. In his preface to this etude, for instance, he suggests four options for the descending scale in bar 11. Friedheim's edition (my personal favorite) suggests three choices there, only one of which places 5-3 on the dyad you refer to.

My advice is to take fingering decisions very seriously. You probably don't want to obsess over comparing amongst every edition you can get your hands on, but neither should you accept the fingering specified in any one edition as the default unless you're confident it works best for you.

Try #2 here, first.

Yes, I do realize this. I don't think I'll be getting it up to tempo (listed as half = 69 in my Padrewski edition), but initially I'm finding this etude much easier than 10/1. 10/1 for me had many awkward things to work out and I had a hard time getting the correct notes at any faster tempo.

Chopinist- I have the Padrewski edition, which includes Chopin's fingerings plus some of Padrewski's own. For now I think these are fairly good for me, although there are a couple places where I've inadvertently inserted my own variation. But still, what is the correct technique for crossing over fingers while playing double thirds?

BDB - I might try this Moszkowski double thirds etude also. Why would I do this one before the Chopin, since the Chopin also allows me to practice double thirds?

The Moszkowski is an introduction to the techniques that are used in the Chopin. You should learn it first for the same reason you read your first grade reader before you read War and Peace.

Here you go:
Op. 25 No. 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxIlpis6dFA
Op. 10 No. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK3Mf7aUH3g

BTW........vocabulary question.

Is this etude really "double" 3rds?

Isn't it just 3rds?

Just saying.

I heard Hamelin play about six of these Etudes quite a while ago at Mannes. I can report that the second one you posted must be very easy. He didn't even look like he was trying.

I thought that double made plain that the thirds are played by the same hand. (That's the meaning of "double notes" as used by Moszkowski (mentioned earlier) and Philipp, for example, and the working title for Schumann's Toccata was apparently "Exercise in Double Notes.")

There may not be much potential for confusion between thirds and double thirds (especially when one already knows the content or purpose of a piece), but it's a valuable distinction to make when one is speaking of scales. A scale in thirds could be presumed to be played with the two hands a third apart and each playing one note at a time; a scale in double thirds, on the other hand, clarifies that two notes a third apart are played by one hand.

Following that convention, I think that Op. 25 No. 6 could rightly be called a study in double thirds—and that might be a more revealing description for someone unaware of its substance. (Do such people exist? )


Though it hadn't occurred to me before, this seems to be an issue comparable to thumb-under vs. so-called thumb-over for scales and arpeggios. I think the technique might depend in part on the degree of legato that's desired, but I haven't been able to bring this etude anywhere near the tempo of professional performances. I hope those who've managed to do so can explain what they found to work best.

While it's not an issue worth debating to any great degree, I'm inclined to think as MarkC does.

Thirds are, by definition two notes - or, if you like, "double-note" chords. While I agree that a scale in thirds could be played either with one hand or with two hands, the notes being separated by a third, I am quite convinced that "double thirds" really means thirds played in each hand, otherwise, the passage (scale) would simply be a scale in thirds.

The RCM (Toronto) syllabus gives examples of scales in "double thirds" showing each hand playing in thirds. Otherwise, their requirements call for scales being played "separated by a third."

Cook (Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios) also calls scales in double thirds scales in which both hands are playing thirds at the same time.

Bailie (The Pianist's Repertoire; Chopin} refers to the Op 25 No 6 Etude as an "etude in thirds." I've not seen it referred to "double thirds" except for the four measures (31-34) where both hands are playing in thirds.

Not an earth-shattering issue, of course, but fun to discuss.

Regards,

Chopinist, there are a few measures in the middle of the piece that truly are "double thirds."

Arghhh,

I've studied this piece in considerable depth. It is a monster, a sultry, dreary little piece that ends with a warm sunbreak and can be a delight to play.

First, you must get over any conventional notions you may have about finger transfer and be willing to break rules. You'll be sliding the same finger down from a black to a white key, you'll be hopping your thumb. And you know what? It is possible to become good at it. I'm not a particularly great pianist and have no delusions that I have mastered this piece, or have even played it at full tempo, but some of these seemingly awkward and impossible transitions do become facile motions with practice.

Now with that back drop., on M. 11 beat 1:



At the tempo you're going to be playing, little things like holding the thumb on the B are not going to be noticeable. The 3-1; 5-3 transfer involves a very quick and nimble little hop because you cannot afford, at final tempo, to hold the thumb. You have much bigger fish to fry with the constant finger motion and the phrasing, and that demonic tempo. Smoothness will come in time, and being overly conscious of details like this will only trip you up and slow you down.

Edit: I just went and played this and realize I use the fingering 4-2; 3-1; 4-2; 3-1 on that first beat. Going 3-1; 5-3 requires that hand to move that much more.



That's perfect. Are you getting tripped on the unisons of the thirds at fast tempo? One of the secrets when practicing this: Don't just practice playing the thirds. Practice individual fingers. Taking the opening passage, try 4-1, 2, 4-1, 2, over and over. Get it smooth and even. Don't go too fast at first - speed will come with confidence, and confidence will come with time. Then do 4-1, 5, 4-1, 5, then 1, 5-2, 1, 5-2, then 4, 5-2, 4, 5-2. Dismantle every thirds trill in the piece and do this with every combination of fingering you can imagine. I cannot emphasize enough, counterintuitive though it seems, do not try to go fast at first!

Another trick I found for technique acquisition for this piece, when I started, was to practice playing the thirds RH in the bass registers because of the heaver keyweight.

Let me know if this helps. If you wish, PM me on this, as mutual study partners provide mutual motivation. I would love to work with you on this piece, and would genuinely appreciate an incentive to get back into it.

Whether right, wrong or redundant, a Google search on chopin etude "double thirds" returns nearly 2,600 results!

And a search on chopin etude "thirds" returns over 20,000!! I have never heard this etude referred to as being in double thirds.

What could one call it when both hands plays thirds?

According to this post from 2009, that would be "double thirds with both hands":

Fingering scales in double thirds

Even if the "double thirds" usage is dead wrong, it seems unusual that one would never have heard this etude referred to as such. It must be as rare as never having heard words like dissect, agoraphobia or nuclear mispronounced.

A google search on "chopin's butt" returns 2 results!
A google search on "my armpit" returns 159,000 results!

As to the question about the proper usage of "double thirds", prior to making my original post I searched piano world archives for +double +thirds +etude and came up with many people talking about the Chopin double thirds etude. In fact, I even found this quotation: