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Estonia Pianos
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Gosh, that almost sounds like a compliment. wink

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
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Originally Posted by theJourney
I must say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread and have the strange urge to print the thing out and spend the half day that it takes to trudge my way all the way to a Kawai dealer
@theJourney: you apparantly have the guts to say that you like this thread. wink Now, what about the next step: if you would just order a CA93/CA63 then you could help us out by developing some professional presets, as there's a heck of a lot more ground to cover. cool

@KawaiJames: I'm currently living from half compliments, or more in general any kind of feedback, as Kawai isn't paying me anything (so far) for improving and expanding upon the factory presets, you know? grin wink


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Dutchman: I should be getting a CA63 delivered within the next few days. I'll be happy to play around with the included Technician to hear what can be heard.


--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
My great-grandfather was an opera singer
My grandfather was a pianist
...
We'll see what my kids do
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Originally Posted by Steve Deutsch
I'll be happy to play around with the included Technician to hear what can be heard.
@SteveDeutsch: congratulations, that's the spirit!


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Originally Posted by TADutchman
@SteveDeutsch: congratulations, that's the spirit!


Hi TADutchman,

I'm using your BRILLIANT CLASSICAL PIANO R2.2 settings with following small diferences (it take a special place in the Registration Memory pad wink

Dual Voice: Concert Grand, volume 6 + Studio Grand, volume 4

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 2 Damper resonance: 9
2 - 3 String resonance: 9
2 - 4 Key off effect: 8

Reverb: Hall 1

These settings are very good for my taste and I play with and without headphones.


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Hi Pinipon,

I just tried your slight adaptation of the R2.2 settings: this is a welcome variation. You've got it too, good ears! This is how it works. cool


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Originally Posted by Pinipon
These settings are very good for my taste and I play with and without headphones.

That reminds me of what I do for developing presets: I tend to listen with my CA93 live at about 4.8 volume and interchangeably with my HD595 at the same master volume. Of course, there can be a slight perception difference, as you use a combination of CA63 and AKG K701.


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Originally Posted by TADutchman
Originally Posted by Pinipon
These settings are very good for my taste and I play with and without headphones.

That's reminds me of what I do for developing presets: I tend to listen with my CA93 live at about 4.8 volume and interchangeably with my HD595 at the same master volume. Of course, there can be a slight perception difference, as you use a combination of CA63 and AKG K701.


I played with master volume of 6.0 (to 6.5), but now I use the same master volume of you (4.5 to 4.8) since I play with your settings. Maybe it is because of the layered sounds...

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Some major advantages of using the CA93/CA63's dual voice mode: smile
+ More authentic piano and other state-of-the-art timbres possible.
+ By using a natural sounding combination of EQ Tone control, Dynamic Layering and Voicing (Hammer Hardness), dynamic range and complexity of tone/decay can be vastly expanded.
+ Exploring the whole sample pool of 80/60 sounds becomes attractive, by layering sounds you would never use standalone.
+ Up to 3dB(/6dB?) improvement of 'pre-amp' signal-to-noise ratio.
+ No detectable difference in polyphony compared to single voice mode.
+ This is a unique major feature if combined with the CA93/CA63's coherent UPHI sample quality: other console type digital pianos simply cannot do it!
+ ...

Some minor disadvantages of using layered sounds: frown
- Harder to develop and set-up than a single layer preset.
- Changing one sound on the fly leads to unpredictable results.
- Incompatibility: not all variety of (piano) sounds can be layered successfully (some combinations yield phasing issues).
- Some acoustic Piano's don't sound right yet when layered ontop of itself with different Layer Dynamics (Electric Piano's do). A simple delay, i.e. a single millisecond(s) flatter echo, would help; different layer volumes already can do the trick now. It seems like firmware v1.07 already has improved behaviour.
- ...

Some general remarks/feature requests related to custom settings: cool
* Currently, only 8+1 presets can be stored in memory.
* No USB loading/saving presets functionality available (yet).
* Would love to see a 4-band full parametric EQ or if that's impossible because of CPU limitations, add mid freq operating range control to the 3-band EQ.
* Expose more hardware related parameters in the Virtual Technician, including full ADSR control per layer!
* Add Trigger Delay, Stereo Pan, Layer Transition [Midi note dependent] and Detune options for Dual Sounds, further enhancing the Unique Selling Point of dynamic layering!!!
* ...
help wink


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I assume all these setting will work on my CA61?


Charles Walter Model W (190)


“The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.” J.S. Bach


"I just want to know, if we came from monkeys and apes, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?" George Carlin
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Hmm tried it, but on the higher notes, you get that weird unison sound, very weird.


Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)
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Before purchasing my CA93, I actually considered buying a CA111, partly because of its beautiful appearance. In the music store, I have 1:1 compared the action and sample quality of the CA63 and CA111 (I cannot directly relate to the CA61, although I guess that the basic sound signature is similar). Surprisingly for me at that time, the CA63 outperformed the CA111 by far, although the speaker system of the CA63 obviously is much weaker. The CA93/CA63 is much tighter, crispy and more coherent. Also the new action and ivory feel add to the experience. In combination with the Virtual Technician this makes that for the CA93/CA63 the whole is more than the sum of its parts. Nevertheless, connectivity of the CA111 is excellent and owners could plug-in (multiple instances of) a virtual instrument anytime they want to...

Also based on your experiences, I'm sorry to conclude that this thread, especially in case of layered piano sounds, is less relevant for previous generation Kawai DP owners. So, at least the title appears to be correct. wink

See also my comments towards dewster on the (lack of) competition:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1492518/NORD%20PIANO.html#Post1492348

Last edited by TADutchman; 08/11/10 08:59 AM. Reason: thread reference added

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Originally Posted by TADutchman

Some general remarks/feature requests related to custom settings: cool
* Currently, only 8+1 presets can be stored in memory.
* No USB loading/saving presets functionality available (yet).


yeah... 8 memories are definitively not enough. It would be great if the new firmware allow USB loading/saving settings.

Originally Posted by TADutchman

* Would love to see a 4-band full parametric EQ or if that's impossible because of CPU limitations, add mid freq operating range control to the 3-band EQ.
* Expose more hardware related parameters in the Virtual Technician!
* ...
help wink


* be possible to adjust the touch curve "manually", not by the current "teaching" process.

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@Everyone, here's an analogy with Photoshop High Dynamic Range Tone Mapping of Layers, visualising the principle of successful layering and ultra dynamic timbre matching of dual CA93/CA63 piano voices:

http://photoshoptutorials.ws/photos...ne-mapping-with-layers-in-photoshop.html

Sonic reality is much more complex than taking a few pictures, of course. whistle


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Here's a quote from an old SOS article that inspired me to start experimenting with layering CA93/CA63 piano sounds in the first place:

"The secret — and it's an important one — lies in the combination of two sounds that are similar enough to be indistinguishable within the composite, but different enough to create a sound that is more interesting than either of the components in isolation."

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jan03/articles/synthsecrets0103.asp


Now, let's get back to the core business of this thread: wink

Oh boy, this patch sounds really old. There are some very complex resonances going on and when you hit the keys hard, they don't seem to cooperate very well.


GOOD OLD VINTAGE GRAND R1.0

Dual Voice: Mellow Grand, volume 5 + Studio Grand, volume 5

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: low 2, mid -2, high -6

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: dynamic
2 - 2 Damper resonance: 10
2 - 3 String resonance: 10
2 - 4 Key off effect: 8
2 - 5 Touch: normal

3 Key Settings
3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 7

Reverb: Hall 2

Effect: none


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My wife just loves to play this huge sounding church organ preset. The wooden/ivory touch keys and CA93 Soundboard really shine here! cool wow

Would anybody happen to know/have an affordable Midi Bass Pedal for us, because currently she insists that I play the pounding bassline on the lower part of the keyboard for her: shocked sick


HEAVY PROTESTANT CHURCH ORGAN R1.0

Dual Voice: Full Ensemble, volume 5 + Chiffy Tibia, volume 5

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: low +6, mid +4, high +2

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: mellow 2
2 - 5 Touch: off
2 - 6 Temperament: kirnberger

Reverb: Hall 2

Effect: Delay 3, time 9, depth 4


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LOL. Bach's toccata and Fugue in d minor is fun to play as a duet this way!

You might want to talk to van Kerkwijk in Amstelveen. He still has a home organ trade and might be offered used pedal sets for resale. Roland used to have a couple of relatively cheap midi solutions. You could also contact Hammond in Vianen to see if they have ideas, especially if you want a full size pedal board.

BTW. There will be some great organ concerts in the Westerkerk next week during the Grachtenfestival from the illustrious Jos van der Kooy.

Last edited by theJourney; 08/14/10 02:43 AM.
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Thanks, the Journey, I'll have a look. By the way, there are many more organ voices available to explore, so that preset mission can take some more time... (somebody could jump into the void here).

But “Life is like a piano... what you get out of it depends on how you play it.” Now this is what I call an outgoing personality: cool


RESONANT CLASSICAL GRAND LIVE R1.0

Dual Voice: Concert Grand, volume 5 + Studio Grand, volume 5

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: low +3, mid +2, high +2

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: dynamic
2 - 2 Damper resonance: 10
2 - 3 String resonance: 8
2 - 4 Key off effect: 6
2 - 5 Touch: normal

3 Key Settings
3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 9

Reverb: Hall 1

Effect: Delay 2, time 3, depth 4


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All that talk about Dual Voice layering: are there no strings attached?
Well, sometimes you may wish that you actually had some more strings attached: grin wink


THE DIFFERENCE IN BETWEEN R1.0

Dual Voice: Concert Grand, volume 6 + Harpsichord, volume 4

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: low 0, mid +1, high +3

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: dynamic
2 - 2 Damper resonance: 10
2 - 3 String resonance: 8
2 - 4 Key off effect: 8
2 - 5 Touch: heavy

3 Key Settings
3 - 3 Layer octave: -1
3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 9

Reverb: Stage

Effect: None


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You might wanna check this one out for those catchy, dry and funky short notes: smokin


FAST ATTACK FENDER RHODES R1.0

Dual Voice: Classic E-piano, volume 5 + 60's E.P., volume 5

1 Basic Settings
1 - 3 Tone control: low +6, mid +5, high -6

2 Virtual Technician
2 - 1 Voicing: bright 2
2 - 5 Touch: light+

3 Key Settings
3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 10

Reverb: Room 1

Effect: Chorus, rate 4, depth 4


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