Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players

Hi JW,
glad you liked it. Yes I was just experimenting with overlaying different rhythms over the basic pulse. One thing I was trying is doing a basic LH stride (in 2) and then playing a solo in 3/4 in the RH in 1/8s, and then in 4/4 for variety. Also there was some 4 agaisnt 3 going on. Maybe a little 5 against 3 crept in as I have been working on that recently.
With the harmony I was trying to think at times a little poly-harmonically, using secondary chords above the basic chords to create a new sound. Like for example playing an F major chord over a Ab13b9 or playing C major over the Bb7 or Eb major over the A7. I was experimenting with displacing these to give a slightly strange alternative sounding sequence. I didn't change the basic sequence at all except where I slipped up (quite frequently).
All in all I need to play it a lot more before it really feels comfortable as a solo piano piece.

Hi Custard,
yeah I like Moroni. There is a great clip on youtube of his version of Aint Misbehaving. I have a recording somewhere of him playing with Pieranunzi, who has done loads of amazing stuff.

Cool, beeboss, if one day you do happen to stumble across this recording, I would like to listen to it.
Have a nice day.

That rhythmic stuff looks and sounds impossible for me to play Very challenging. 2 against 3 is typical in 3/4 but you gave it a strong bias towards the 2/4 which matches the melody. A very interesting approach.

Can you explain the concept of your secondary chords? What is the logic for F over Ab13b9?

Sure, it's just straight forward upper structure stuff. Take the chord, Ab13b9sharp11 for example, work out the scale that works with it (Ab diminished - 1/2,1 mode), and then work out what other chords can be found within that scale and then experiment with superimposing then over the original chord. The diminished scale is great for this approach being symmetrical. You can find Fmaj, Abmaj, Dmaj, Bmaj triads Fm, Abm, Bm, Dm triads, Fdim, Abdim etc triads, F7, D7, B7, Fm7, Dm7, Bm7, D7b9, F7b9, B7b9 and many many more.
So if you want an interesting voicing for Ab7 you can try F triad in the RH over Ab7 (or Ab13) in the LH or any of the other possibilities. It opens the way for many different harmonies.

Beeboss, I get the diminished cycle stuff (I think we discussed it earlier in this thread). I think I just misread what you said. I thought you said you were playing Fmaj7 against the Ab13b9. I would have thought you'd play a dominant against a dominant. But apparently you were playing a triad so I didn't see that.

BTW - I did hear some 5/4 stuff over it too but I wasn't sure as it kept shifting. Apparently I wasn't losing my mind. I know you've been working specifically at this odd meter overlay stuff. I'm surprised you're not a bigger Mehldau fan with this kind of interest (I am of course, though I can't even begin to develop this odd meter skill.).

I have a teacher that has no interest in odd meters. To him, traditional jazz has enough that it's not necessary to go beyond 4/4 and 3/4. But to me it's fresh and modern sounding. Unfortunately, I will have to develop this skill for myself as he does not have the expertise to teach it.

Playing an odd meter is one thing but overlaying two different meters is mind boggling

Hi JW,
Oh ok sorry for repeating the diminished cycle stuff again. I guess you could use Fmaj7 over Ab7 without a problem as long as you are careful about the E clashing. You can take the secondary chords from other scales as well as the diminished.

I love what Mehldau's trio does with the rhythm, it is very clever stuff. But something about Mehldau doesn't grab me, I don't think I can explain it. I much prefer the approach of Chris Potter, Craig Taborn, Dave Holland and Ari Hoenig. Those guys play different rhythms in the way I would like to.

Then if you're thinking Ari Hoenig, do you also like the Kenny Werner approaches? I saw them once when they are still a trio. Ari is an incredible drummer. But these guys are not overlaying rhythms as much as Mehldau.

I was just curious because you were overlaying the rhythms here, not just playing in an odd meter. Impressive skill to even get to this point (regardless of your percieved perfection ). Someday I want to be able to do that too. But it will take awhile...

I don't have any good kenny Werner recordings but I did once go to workshop of his and to see his playing at such close hand was rather impressive. I have read his book which is interesting. And I would really love to hear him play with Ari, I shall have a look for that at Smalls website.
I have an interesting instructional dvd from Ari about metric modulation. It completely fries my brain but it is good for getting an idea of what they are doing. Learning all the various cross rhythms and getting them solid is a good start though.

BB, does he sell this DVD? It will be interesting to see.

BTW - I hope nobody here gets an expectation that any of us will be playing Very Early with metric overlays I for one will be playing it in the traditional way...

You set a high bar here Beeboss! (Of course that will always be the case).

It's a beautiful tune though and Doug McKenzie's version shows that it works well as a ballad because it is really made to work with piano. It's a tune that requires some finesse with one's touch I find.

You can find it at amazon...just search
intro to polyrhythms- ari hoenig and johannes weidenmueller

it is a book with dvd included.

I wouldn't exactly recommend it even though I found it very interesting. It's a weird blend of extremely easy and extremely complicated at the same time.

.

Hi Dave Ferris
It's my pleasure, I really like those wonderful tensions too.
They lift the song to another planet. It must be great to be able to identify them away from the piano, I'm nowhere near that stage. But ONE day I hope that my ear training will pay off.

I tested out playing Very Early, Nefertiti and GBPPH at a music store That's a way to test if I really know it. Very Early is getting close and is starting to feel automatic.

I have no idea how good it sounded other than the fact that the salesperson actually came by and said it sounded great and asked me if I wanted to turn up the speakers. He said he had to walk back and see who was playing.

Maybe he says that to everyone or he has low standards but in any case, it gave me a little bit of confidence.

I should be able to have one of these ready for the Recital here on ABF.

Of course, let it be known now that I'm playing it in a simple waltz. Nothing fancy.

BTW - I forgot to report that I was at the Kenny Barron concert and had a great time. I wished there was more of Kenny playing something more complex. But mostly it was easy listening since there was a vocalist (Kurt Elling). But even the little of Kenny sounded great. His super fast fingers reminded me of Mulgrew Miller.

The real treat for me was that they actually played a tune composed by my teacher which was kind of neat. Nice to know he was getting applause without being present.

Hi JW, is it a secret who your teacher is? I have noticed that you mention him a lot but never by name. I am just curious.

No big mystery Beeboss. I just don't want my comments to be Googled. I always tell anyone who asks by PM. Since I started a whole big AL thread on basics, I mention my teacher frequently to make sure everyone understands that most of what I say on that thread was acquired from someone better.

So I tried recording a bit of my practice session on Very Early, but as it turns out, once the red light is on, I forget what I'm doing. Maybe I'll post it anyway, to show a starting point.

hey wee, I've found a trick to the "red light" dilemma. It used to mess me up too, like I had to play it perfect. But now I just turn it on record and play the song several times over, without pressing stop or pause. It gives me the freedom to mess up with no pressure.

I just edit it once I transfer it to the computer, take the version you like best and cut the rest out. I use Audacity software.

Fortunately Wiz, I don't care if I mess up (my method). But as I tried to transfer the practice session recording to my Zoom, for some unknown reason, the recording disappeared on the Keyboard. Darn!

I'll have to do it again. Not a problem though. I'm getting really comfortable with this tune. And the funny part is that it' not even the solo that messes me up. It's the voicing changes I made. I guess it's harder to relearn something (I'll have to practice it five times as often).

I do better with taking a one shot recording then retrying over and over.

Mike, I missed this post (it was when I got sick).

This LALA.COM in your links is incredible. We all need to join (FREE) in this thread so it's easy to reference tunes (without having to always buy it). That way we can talk about specific versions and variations thereof.

Scep, here's your chance to listen to Four versions of Very Early. You tell me if the chords are different on each.

BTW - Mike, these contemporary jazz versions are great. Are you taking any of these? Being a Mehldau and Pascua fan, I'd be interested. Falling Grace is kind of along these lines since it has a contemporary groove to it. It's not really swing.