Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards What It Is Your Take on East West QL Pianos?

Hello,

I'm wondering what your take on that plugin is?

A friend of mine is a classically trained pianist from Russia, it was one or two years ago, where he desperately tried to convince me not to buy Ivory and instead go for East West Pianos.

He said go to both websites make sure the sound examples are at the same volume level and JUST LISTEN, CONCENTRATE AND LISTEN!!!

So I did, and in fact I could hear a difference, I found the QL Pianos a bit more clean and high quality, while Ivory was a bit more low quality and gritty.

Recently I fell in love with Alicia's Keys piano plugin and I'm not even using QL Pianos anymore.

I love how versatile I can play on Alicia's Keys plugin, I can go real dark and aggressive, I can go very soft and playful, the sound is beautiful. I'm not sure "how real" it sounds, but it just sounds good to me and I love playing it, and that is what matters to me in the first place (though I know that some single samples here and there a little bit messed up, but it doesn't bother me that much, I think they'll sort that out in the future).

NOW, when I compare it to QL Pianos, then I do notice, that QL Pianos does sound a little bit blurry, sometimes it feels like it's a bit under water, and spongy. While Alicia's Keys is pretty tight and defined. The blurry sound of QL Pianos feels like it is tiring out my ears sometimes, and it also makes it difficult to be expressive with the piano, not just from dark/aggressive to bright and playful, but also it's hard to play quiet parts with QL Pianos because of the velocity levels.

Notice that I mostly did play the Steinway in QL Pianos, the Yamaha did not sound good to me at all, it almost sounded like playing on metal or steel.

So after all, even though QL was better than its competitors it wasn't THE best either.

For me it's Alicia's Keys all the way, it's one of the best and most amazing piano plugins that I've heard, and did I say that I love playing it? Which man wouldn't love playing with Alicia Keys, huh?

Well on the contrary though I've also heard some of my friends say the "plugin is not all that", so yeah those human beings exist as well. lol

For that small price tag and the relatively small 15 GB's of space you can't really beat that, but you can tap that (pun intended LOL).


I've listened to the plugins through Yamaha HS80M monitors and a quality audio interface.
The monitors are placed correctly (far from the walls and corners), so there's no huge deformation of the sound.


I hope to hear your opinion on this.

I don't think I'm going to sell QL pianos, I still can use it in the future, even if it's just for composing purposes.


Have a gooood day, I'm going drink something.

Hello Konovich,

I have Alcia's Keys. The sound is very, very good but I'm still struggling with the velocity settings ...there is absolutely no power especially in the bass whenever I want to play using high velocities... absolutely nothing. I don't know whether this was intended or not. I can use this plugin for quiet and calm pieces but for pieces (e.g. by Rachmaninov) which require you to get agressive, it won't work.

If this could be fixed, this library would be great !

I also love the grands by Acoustic Samples and Imperfect Samples...you can never have enough of these libraries.

EWQL imho so far have the best sounding demo samples on their website but I have never played any of their grands. My local keyboard dealer let me test several libraries in his store but whenever I loaded the EWQL the computer would crash, lol.

EWQL has velocity switching issues, IIRC one of the guys who performed some of their demos admitted to editing the MIDI velocity to avoid them.

They have basic issues with the samples too, I'd recommend you avoid them.

Do you know about the output section of Kontakt (Player)?
Look below the title bar at the left side and klick it.
There are a lot of effects and filters available. Especially a 3 band parametric and graphic EQ.

This is probably not explained in the user manual. At least it was not explained in the galaxy user manual... and I always ignored this not knowing what I missed.

Once you have discovered it, it should be pretty selfexplaining.

explain "velocity switching issues"

does the sound seem to jump in steps? Or are the velocities recorded out of tune? What is the exact problem with east west ql?

It's supposed to be very good on par with synthogy.

btw, I also love alicia's keys & imperfect samples.

I dont think there is a perfect piano sample anymore than there is a perfect acoustic piano, or perfect guitar. They all have their own character and quirks.

Yes, if you play a single note with increasing velocity you can easily hear the different recordings they used. On EWQL these steps are quite noticeable and therefore are a problem.


Those reviews are too kind IMO.


Well, there are sample sets with their own character and quirks, and then there is EWQL.

This is one of the main difference between buying a sample set and a self contained virtual instrument. The sample set is played by a "sampler" and at least if you are not using the free demo sampler you have a huge set of tweaks available. You can do "anying" to the samples, move the loop points, change the way velocity switching works apply filters. Samples are very complex software. You are pretty much just working with raw data and a complex program. A real sample set is just a collection of WAV files.

That said, it is a lot of work and maybe not worth trying unless you like messing with technical stuff.

No. all this cannot be done to the piano sounds in galaxy because the samples and the scripts are encrypted.
If you had the full version of Kontakt you could not do it either. This stuff is copy protected and not acessible.

Galaxy is a virtual instrument consisting out of samples and scripts and this virtual instrument needs the kontakt player to run.

The output effect section is very straightforward. There are all insert effects that you can find for example in a CVP Clavinova or in a synth workstation and more, because for example the filters and equalizers show the frequency response graphically.

To get all these effects in a piano you had to buy an very expensive high end Clavinova. For example the lower end CVPs dont have compressors and here you can insert many of them.

It is clear that an equalizer cannot transform a Yamaha into a Boesendorfer, but if all you want is some stronger bass or to compensate weaknesses of the speakers, this is the right tool.

I'll let you know! (I have it on order).

It's interesting that for her live work she uses an acoustic grand (not her studio instrument) with MIDI + the Alicia's Keys samples. The house engineer apparently decides on the mix between the two sources.

The Keyboard Magazine article this month makes it clear that this piano is not going to work for all styles. Still, the examples at Native Instruments and on the album she released using the samples should give an indication - post processing aside.

This is surprising for me, because it's the opposite for me, I'm able to play aggressive with this plugin more than with any other plugin I've tried (EWQL included).

Though I believe you mean those extra loud parts which Rachmaninoff plays. I'm able to play aggressive ala Chopin not 'extra' loud, but still intense and dark, I never tried the Rachmaninoff style, so I can't comment on that directly.

But I can say that what type of monitoring system (audio interface (+drivers), speakers) + room positioning of the monitors can play a big role how the sound will sound. It's really not that much different on how you place a real piano in different places in a closed environment and at every different position the piano will sound more or less slightly different. (4 times the word 'different' in one sentence, haha)

I have Yamaha HS80M monitors (they used to cost 1000 USD or something like that), these are not really 'listening' speakers for enjoyment of music, but rather give an even and 'true' sound picture, meaning the sound should be how it's really is and not 'changed', though I can use them easily for listening purposes as well.
I've also placed them away from the walls in the middle of the room in a correct position, to get the most accurate sound possible.

Here's an article for more info: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar02/articles/monitors.asp


Other than that you could try doing a sound example, and I'll see how it sounds over my system, for getting a better picture.


p.s. Has anyone latency issues? I've heard people having latency issues, interestingly I had the correct buffer settings from the beginning on, so I never experienced them. But there is a workaround/fix for this problem, that you can do inside Kontakt.

You can for example ADD a 2 ms latency CUT by doing the following in Kontakt:


click EDIT All groups
Click on SOURCE - MOD flag.
Look at midi CC 110
Move slider so it displays 59,8%


I haven't tried it myself since I don't have the latency issue, but for people who tried it it did work, please use this on your own risk.

Hello Konovich and Peter ,

I have to admit I'm pretty lost with all the possibilities and settings of Kontakt Player. I'm familiar with the output section though ( reverb, convolution etc.)...I'm not sure what the effects of the filters are, I don't notice any differences when using them.

I will try to post a sound example.

I guess Alicia's Keys was not designed with the needs of a player of classical music in mind. Scarbee should sample more pianos in the future, he really knows what he's doing.


To exemplify what I mean by strong bass with bite check out the Kawai EX !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E_TSkkWxBs&feature=channel

I would certainly agree with this statement.

All sample based pianos lack repedalling feature (with the exception of Ivory which has dedicated engine supporting repedalling and other piano features). That makes them unplayable for me including East West QL Pianos.

Now I dont pretend to be an expert and initially I used Kontaktplayer II and no manual for this was available.
I found most things simply by trying, but it was hard.
Now I have Kontaktplayer 4.05 and the manual is accessible in the help section.
Yes it is still confusing for newbies because most stuff refers to Kontakt users and is not needed ;-) So the biggest problem is to sort out what is /not/ needed ;-)

The effect is dramatic.

You must use an output section that is connected to the output of the piano.
Simply try the volume sliders in the output section.
Also the output used can be seen and adjusted at the left side of the "Multi rack", that is the box where the pianos Name is visible.

It is also possible to add "Aux" outputs to the piano and insert effects to them. Klick the buttons named "aux" to see what they do.

It is possible to add output channels to the output section.
Press the "config" button to ensure that the section used is connected to your physical sound output.

It is possible to load the piano multiply into kontakt. This doesnt increase memory usage, because the samples are shared.

Each instance of the piano can have an individual velocity curve and sound adjustment and output section. Now, when these pianos are mixed, it will not sound like a mix, because it is one and the same piano....

So if a simple equalizer will not do what you want, you could load two pianos, and apply a low pass or a equalizer setting with enhanced bass to the second piano and choose a different velocity curve for this...

The possibilitys are infinite...

If you have made such a configuration you must save it as "multi", not as an instrument. Otherwise the adjustments made in the output section would be lost.

Well, if you really want a typical classical piano with strong bass like the Kawai EX, you could buy lancemy's samples, but for those the full version of Kontakt is required. This will be expensive.

Another possiblity would be to buy the Galaxy Boesendorfer.
Galaxy has annonced that they will soon offer the individual instruments from the Galaxy II piano collection as single full featured instruments.

BTW, I dont want to hijack this thread that originally had another topic. Maybe another thread would be required.

Peter

Galaxy pianos support repedalling.
I am not advanced player and dont use this feature and so I cannot judge about the quality of their implementation, but the feature is definitely there and can be switched on and off.

Galaxy also has support for silent keypress and freeform velocity curve. I wonder why most other expensive libraries dont have these features that are relatively cheap to implement.....

I don't know how they sampled Alicias' Keys. Velocity layers to not need to be evenly spaced from 1 to 127. They say it was designed for her style of playing which, from what I've heard is not loud or forceful. They may have designed it so you can get many variations of tone in the ppp to mp range and then included one "f" sample.

I've found that "listening speakers" really do work best for digital piano. The reason is that we are NOT re-producing music but producing music and 100% accurate reproduction is not needed, or I think even wanted.

Having played electric guitar some, I think of the speakers as part of the instrument, not something you connect to the instrument. Think this way and you will then start looking to shape, or craft your sound by selecting speakers. Many DP players think that the DP should mimic an accustic piano perfectly so they think they want accurate studio monitors. But that is wrong even if the goal is to exactly minic the acoustic sound because with acoustic pianos the sound does not come from little speakers, it comes from a huge soundboard, case, strings and lid ad is mostly reflected off or conducted through some surface before it reaches your ears. What I've found is that you want physically large speakers, the bigger the better. Floor standing types are best. Then get an aplifier that has enough headroon so you get good dynamcs. This might mean 100 (real) watts per channel.

You might think "100W is loud" no, not if you don't turn it up. What you want is the different between ppp and fff to be large and for the bass to be strong and un-muddy. For that you need a lot of reserve power or "head room" in the amp. Buy one that you can leave the volume set to "3".

Bottom line: (1) physically large speakers that go down to 40Hz and (2) and amp with considerable headroom. You do not need to spend a lot of money. You can find this kind of stuff in thrift shops if you are on a budget.

im surprised you have such a low opinion off it.

Can you possibly give your opinion of alicia's keys? This is my favorite piano right now and I'm curious to see if you pan this one too.

Lots of people have this piano now so if you need samples at certain MIDI velocities, etc. just ask.

@hpeterh:

Ok, I've just discovered how to change the equalizer values...interesting !

But still...the problem remains. There are no noticeable differences in the f to fff range, that's whats bothering me. Of course, I could just make the bass part louder but that doesn't fully solve the problem.

So, one can say that Alicia's Keys fills a niche but it isn't as versatile as your standard sampled grand. I really wonder whether Alicia's acoustic Yamaha grand has these limitations as well or whether the people of Scarbee have just decided to sample the ppp-mf range with great detail ( at which they did a great job, imho) at the expense of the upper dynamic range.

If you invoke the onscreen keyboard you can check i out.
When the keys are clicked at the front, they produce max velocity.
When the other end is clicked, min velocity.
I dont know if the gradient is linear, but I think so.
Edit:
I connected MIDI IN and OUT with a cable and loaded MIDI-OX to check this:
The gradient is not linear. It is approximately quadratic. When the end of the key is 0% and the front is 100% then Velocity 64 is approximately at 25% :-(

You should then also be able to test the effect of dynamics and velocity curve.
But I must say I never tried it this way.
When I had a Yamaha CVP, I could it set to fixed velocity and use the data wheel for velocity adjustment.
My new Kawai unfortunately doesnt support that.
BTW, I have read another posting (in german language) where somebody claimed just the opposit: He said, he could not play ppp-mf. At the lightest keystroke the piano was loud. (He said so, but he was not able to analyze it)
Probably it would be good to use MIDI-OX and see wich velocity values the keyboard produces.

You might also want to check or modify Kontakts velocity adjustment for the instrument. Klick the two gear wheels to get the instrument options. Set the velocity range to 1-127 if not already set this way.
Edit:
Possibly the default velocity adjustment is optimized for Native Instruments own masterkeyboards. This are nonweighted or halfweighted keyboards.

It is also possible, because this is a POP-piano that the default velocity and dynamics are adjusted to get compressed dynamics. I dont know how effective these adjustments are and how far this can be modified. For classic probably 75% or 100% dynamics where appropriate, and /after/ this the velocity curve must be chosen. Be shure the inbuilt adjustable compressor is set to off.

I am interested in this because I possibly want to get the alicia keys piano myself....


Peter

I am wondering if the whole process of choosing pop singer's piano for sampling and her name is something you have considered I would never consider a piano named after Alicia Keys. If it was the Yamaha of Glenn Gould - that's another story Their intention and demos show that they were after recreating more of a pop-oriented sound instead of realistic dynamics.