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They are thick because people want the piano to be loud. Kees The only reason that piano strings are a larger diameter than harpsichord strings is because people want the piano to have more volume? If this was actually true then why didn’t they just install larger diameter strings in the harpsichord to begin with? I will have to let the good folks who actually manufacture pianos know that they have been wasting their time all along…… I'm not sure why you try to quibble about obvious facts or what your point is. Hpschd has thinner strings because there is less string tension, hence no need. Why on earth would anyone want to install large diameter strings in a harpsichord? Early fortepiano's also had less string tension and thinner strings, hence less inharmonicity. Similar things happened with the violin. Baroque violins have gut strings, less tension, and are softer. Kees
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Should we buy Dan a harpsichord kit and let him put piano wire on it so he can find out the hard way what would happen?
Kees, the first historical temperament I learned to tune was the Vallotti. I equalized the double octaves and octave-fifths when I tuned it too. That created octaves of dramatically different widths. You either have double octaves equal with zero cent 5ths or you have double octaves stretched to where they beat equally with octave-5ths that originated from 5ths that were 4 cents narrow. The results would be quite different from simply putting in the cents deviation for the Vallotti temperament into the ETD and doing what it says. That would make the pure 12th wide and the tempered ones too tempered. Think about it. It is a good illustration of why I don't use a calculated stretch.
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Should we buy Dan a harpsichord kit and let him put piano wire on it so he can find out the hard way what would happen?
Kees, the first historical temperament I learned to tune was the Vallotti. I equalized the double octaves and octave-fifths when I tuned it too. That created octaves of dramatically different widths. You either have double octaves equal with zero cent 5ths or you have double octaves stretched to where they beat equally with octave-5ths that originated from 5ths that were 4 cents narrow. The results would be quite different from simply putting in the cents deviation for the Vallotti temperament into the ETD and doing what it says. That would make the pure 12th wide and the tempered ones too tempered. Think about it. It is a good illustration of why I don't use a calculated stretch. I understand. I could probably compute the custom irregular stretch, but I probably should instead check this out aurally. I have machine tuned Vallotti (actually Lehman-Bach, almost the same) and didn't notice anything wrong. I used 4:1 octaves though. Also, the size of fifths doesn't matter so much I think, they are just the size they are to get the M3's as desired. The pure ones are pure just for tuning convenience for me. That's of course just my own feeling. Kees Kees
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I haven't posted on this subject in a while, but thought the following link might be interesting to some of you. I have a particular interest in how we perceive things, specifically light and sound. I personally believe the universe can be expressed by mathmatical formulas and a good example is temperaments and tuning. I think we perceive symetrical objects as being more attractive than nonsymetrical objects. In fact a study was done that found the one factor that dictates if a person is viewed as attractive or not is the symmetry in their face. In other words, the left side matches closely with the right. I find EBVT III to be very symmetrical as it progresses through the scale. That's the big difference I find as compared to ET, although I do like ET also, but probably because the beats progress in an anticipated manner. I also have an interset in Fourier transform, or Fourier analysis which describes things as a synthesis of repeatable events, or periods, like a series frequencies. I'm very intrigued why we as biological living organisms experience emotions, both bad and good, when we hear certain combinations of frequencies. I found a lecture online by Brad Osgood of Stanford University on the subject of Fourier transform and thought some of you may be interested. You can skip the first 16 minutes because that's just a intro to the course. The main points are made at approximately minutes 30:00 and 34:00, but the whole thing is worth while. It helps put EBVT in perspective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZNm7L96pfYHope you like it.
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Can someone point me to the complete EBVT tuning recipe? Bill's website has the setting of the temperament octave, but how to proceed from there, i.e., precisely how are the octaves to be tuned?
Kees
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Kees,
Bill posted this in another thread:
"I don't have on my website yet a detailed description of how to aurally tune the octaves but I do have in my files some material that would be helpful. I have yet to edit that material for the general public. I can send what I have now to anyone who would be interested by e-mail. The address is: billbrpt@charter.net"
Hope this helps...
--Andy
I may not be fast, but at least I'm slow.
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The secrets of the universe are concealed in a simple (or not so simple) temperament. We perceive the universe in time not frequencies, but the universe is built on frequencies not on time. Music gives us a link between the two. We can experience things through music that are otherwise kept hinden from us. It's the perfect link between art and science. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO3k...1723&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1I think it's the main reason temperaments are so personal to us. It challenges all of our experiences. The math is way above my ability to understand.
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Ralph-- I just watched the video. I need a fox trot! --Andy
I may not be fast, but at least I'm slow.
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I find EBVT III to be very symmetrical as it progresses through the scale. That's the big difference I find as compared to ET I disagree respectfully. In fact, I would view ET as more symmetrical than EBVT. All the ratios (intervals) of the C major or minor scale are repeated in the C# maj/min scale, the D maj/min scale, etc. - whereas in any WT or UT, they are not. I found a lecture online by Brad Osgood of Stanford University on the subject of Fourier transform [...] It helps put EBVT in perspective. How? Would the time or frequency analysis of a C maj chord in EBVT look (significantly) different than that of an ET C maj chord?
Autodidact interested in piano technology. 1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker. 1977 "Ortega" 8' + 8' harpsichord (Rainer Schütze, Heidelberg)
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I think it would. I think the rapidity of the beats would look different and that's what gives the feeling of "color". The frequencies would be very close, but the number of beats per second would not be so similar and the beasts are a periodic function which oscillates or repeats over time. It's those beats that create the essence of a temperament.
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Can someone point me to the complete EBVT tuning recipe? Bill's website has the setting of the temperament octave, but how to proceed from there, i.e., precisely how are the octaves to be tuned?
Kees Kees, I found this while I was poking around this morning. It is a link to a thread Patrick Wingren started when he first tuned in EBVT III. There is a post by Bill on page 1 that goes into detail about octaves. Scroll down about half way to find it. "Learning EBVT: 1st attempt" thread started by Patrick WingrenHope this helps! --Andy
Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 06/03/10 10:21 AM.
I may not be fast, but at least I'm slow.
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Hi all, been busy with a lot of grades, a vespa, and a green house. I will spare you the details Anyways, I'd like to cross-step a bit and draw attention to "The Pianist Corner" of PW. Andy (AKA Cinnamonbear) started a thread in that forum, and it's been quite a ride! I personally learn a lot just by writing over there. Bill posted there too, and in three paragraphs he kind of nailed it. This is what he wrote: It is a Well Tempered idea. That means that the key of C Major sounds the most quiet and harmonious. With the addition of each sharp or flat in the key signature, the key tonality gains energy. This is principally found in how fast the Major Third beats.
Most people today would find the pure or beatless Major Third of the ancient (1/4 Comma) Meantone Temperament to sound "dead" or "flat", lacking resonance. Even if that were to be found appealing, the consequence of "spending it all in one place" is to have completely dissonant intervals elsewhere.
The idea behind true ET is to mitigate all dissonance which it does but the consequence of that is to also deprive all consonance. So, knowing that there was at least some margin of deviation from ET that almost anyone would find acceptable, I strove to create a well temperament that would retain some consonance but also limit the amount of dissonance to what would be found to be acceptable to contemporary perception. One great difference between tuners and pianists are which intervals that really matters. Tuners will dwell on fifths beating so many beats in so many seconds. Musicians really don't. It's more about the fifths sounding good. What really matters to musicians, though, is the brightness of the M3rds. I know the relationship between thirds and fifths is clearly connected in tuning theory - one gives the other. Still, this difference in what we listen for amazes me. I can't help but thinking that it has something to do with properness, what "should" be. And I can't help it… coming into the tuning scene from a musical background, I still listen less to "the perfect intervals" than the sweeter, "leewayed" M3rds
Patrick Wingren, RPT Wingren Pianistik https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistikConcert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland Musician, arranger, composer - - - - Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
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Here's the "pipe organ effect" on my Heintzmann upright after I tuned it with my tunelab EVBT plugin: Pipe organ effect Does it sound about right? Kees
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Kees, are you sure that is NOT a real pipe organ??? That sounds like a real pipe organ. Interesting....my piano did not have as pronounced a pipe organ effect as yours. Bill explained that low inharmonicity pianos seem to have less of this effect.
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Kees, Thank you very much for that! It really does sound like a pipe organ to me. It is interesting how each piano seems to manifest it slightly differently. For some reason (and I do think it has to do with low inharmonicity), I have been somewhat disappointed with the effect on Mason & Hamlins. Nevertheless, when I review GP's tuning on July 1st, I will see if I can pull a little more of that out of it. It is amazing sometimes on little pianos such as Andy's, how well it comes off. Yesterday, I tuned a little Indonesian made Kawai grand and wow!, if only I could have had a recording of that!
It seems to me that when I line up the highest partials of the midrange with the 7th octave, that is where I get the greatest effect. It produces this "whistling" effect that sounds like organ pipes. GP's piano has very soft hammers. The 7th octave doesn't have much brilliance to it but I don't want to mess around with the voicing. My time will be limited and I don't want to risk creating a change that I will regret and cannot reverse. A little grand like the small Kawai probably has some fairly high inharmonicity and the high treble hammers are very hard, producing a clear and bright tone. When those notes are played, they excite all of the upper partials of the strings below them and create the effect of organ pipes.
Now, GP, you may want to ask Ari Isaacs what kind of voicing technique he would recommend to bring out a little more brilliance in the high treble. If he is at the convention, I will ask him too. If that is something Randy can work on before I get there, I would be more comfortable with him doing it than I would be.
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I think Ari uses plexigass/acetone to voice hammers and it works very well. The plexiglass is softer than lacquer and easily reversed. It also doesn't have nearly as much impact noise as lacquer. You also can see the results in about 30 minutes, unlike lacquer which takes days before it's finally hardened. The technique however is different. Plexiglass deosn't really build up the hammer the way lacquer does. It's much thinner and less dense.
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Ralph, that is correct. I don't want to go too far with hardening the hammers, as both player mechanisms play the piano with a lot of energy, hence the hammers will naturally harden with time, as they have done so far.
Bill, I have talked with Ari and he is going to send me the plexiglass beads which I will mix with acetone and go from there. He has told me how to do it, and said it's not difficult to do and is easily reversible, so we should be in good shape for your visit.
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I've done this many times myself and the key to success is go slowly. Use a dilute solution. You can test it by putting a drop on the back of your hand. It should dry into a faint white crust. I use the softest plexigalss I could find from Home Depot. Works great. Even if you get it on the strike point you can bring it back, but try to keep it on the shoulders just short of the strike point. It works itself under the felt. You can best see it by looking at the side of the hammer as you apply the solution.
A word of caution. If you use a small brush to apply it, make sure its an unpainted brush handle. The paint on the brush handle will dissolve in the acetone, run down the brush and stain your hammer. It doesn't affect the sound but it looks very amateurish. I use a small eye dropper.
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Well, thanks guys. I am actually quite familiar and experienced with all of that. Some 25 years ago, I bought a sandwich sized baggie of ground up keytop material from Pianotech when it was a new company. I still have more than half of it left. That is how little it takes.
I have used the Plexiglas beads before but only in a solution given to me by a rebuilder when the client wanted more brilliance. That rebuilder has used Isaac hammers and other makes of hammers that start out soft but gain brilliance with use. I asked the rebuilder to give me the solution, that way I could not be blamed for over doing it.
In GP's case, it is only the top 8-12 hammers that do not speak quite well enough. Many manufacturers saturate those top hammers with hardener. This is often the advice I hear from expert voicers. The very top hammers are not the same as the whole rest of the piano. They must be really hard to get much tone. They are not played as much as the rest of the piano, so waiting for them to gain some tone of their own accord would take longer than the rest of the piano.
So, as in my previous experience with Plexiglas beads, I will defer to what Ari says is the proper amount of beads to mix with the proper amount of acetone for a LIGHT mixture. I use the "hypo-oiler" applicator from Schaff Piano Supply. I believe in building up the tone with several light applications rather than one or two heavy. So, GP, if you could have some solution already pre-mixed when I arrive the evening of June 30, I can give it the first application that evening and we will hear what the results are the following morning.
What I would expect to hear is just a shade of improvement. Two or three more applications can then be applied as we are working with the piano that day and once a level of improvement that is just barely satisfactory, that is the time to stop. It's like cooking scrambled eggs, stop when they aren't quite done yet and by the time they are served, they will be just right. The acetone dries quickly yes but there is still a prolonged cure like 10% further brilliance that occurs with more time. A hair dryer can be used to accelerate the drying of any particular application.
My only reservations were to not do something that Mr. Isaacs would disapprove of and the fact that I could not transport acetone with me on my trip. I can, however bring an empty hypo-oiler bottle and seeing how everyone seems to agree on this, I would have no problem bringing up the tone just slightly of the highest end hammers. That and a re-examination of the stretch in the 7th octave should bring out the pipe organ effect as best as it can be.
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Actually Bill I have no doubt you know how to voice. I thought GP was getting brave as was willing to give it a go by himself. No guts no glory. Nothing a new set of hammers can't fix.
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