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Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: jscomposer] #1438287 05/17/10 07:52 AM
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bkmz Offline
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Originally Posted by jscomposer
Wow, that first one did sound awful! The second was much improved, but still not great. What do you think of this...





Wow. Surprisingly good for Pianoteq. Sample libraries are still better, but this is the best Pianoteq sound I heard so far.

And, btw, speaking of samples - Pianoteq is not 100% modelled, it uses some samples. EXE file contains resources with 88 banks of data for every note. And in demo version some of the banks are excluded.

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Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: Yuri Pavlov] #1438294 05/17/10 08:10 AM
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BazC Offline
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Originally Posted by Yuri Pavlov
Originally Posted by theJourney
Yuri, why don't you upgrade your Pianoteq to the current version?

I don't like pianoteq and find it sound too artifical, and hear about new version has not significant changes in sound... and I still doubt about upgrade.
And whats your opinion about last version?


There is no charge for the upgrade, just download it from your account. There have been huge leaps in the quality of Pianoteq since 2.3 and the latest version is unquestionably the best, you'd be crazy not to upgrade!

@ bkmz To the best of my knowledge Pianoteq is entirely modelled and contains no samples of any kind.


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Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: bkmz] #1438295 05/17/10 08:10 AM
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bkmz, would you care to elaborate on what kind of resources are contained within the Pianoteq EXE?

Cheers,
James
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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: Yuri Pavlov] #1438299 05/17/10 08:15 AM
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theJourney Offline
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Well, AFAIK all legal users of Pianoteq are automatically upgraded to the new version (3.6) for free.
The latest version has a much improved sound, more pianos, better tweakability, etc.
IMO the difference between the two versions is dramatic and significant.

I can think of no legitimate reason why an owner of Pianoteq 2.3 (which you advertise yourself as being on your tagline) would not upgrade to the latest version. If you have questions about how to download the latest version, I am sure that Modartt would be happy to help you (see contact information on their site). If you discover that you accidentally bought a bootlegged or illegal copy, you will probably want to immediately remove it from your computer and inform Modartt and/or your local authorities who was breaking copyright law by distributing illegal copies. You can buy Pianoteq directly from the same site.

www.pianoteq.com



Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: BazC] #1438302 05/17/10 08:18 AM
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theJourney Offline
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Originally Posted by BazC
@ bkmz To the best of my knowledge Pianoteq is entirely modelled and contains no samples of any kind.


Which is not to say that the model does not rely on data sets per piano per key ...

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: theJourney] #1438307 05/17/10 08:26 AM
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BazC Offline
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No indeed but bkmz stated that it is not 100% modelled and contains samples.


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Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: BazC] #1438351 05/17/10 09:45 AM
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Few years ago I tried to reverse-engineer Pianoteq (i.e. to crack the demo version). What I found is that pianoteq.exe has some table of hardcoded data for every note inside, and I couldn't force PT to play missing notes, because data for that particular notes was missing.

BazC, you're right, I can't know for sure that this table consists of recorded samples. It could be a pre-calculated values of some kind.

But why are you so sure that it's not a samples, can you tell?


Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: bkmz] #1438359 05/17/10 10:16 AM
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Because Modartt say it's pure modelling. Of course they could be lying by I've no reason to think they would.


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Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: BazC] #1438360 05/17/10 10:18 AM
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That recording by Joshua does sound good.

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: BazC] #1438379 05/17/10 10:46 AM
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bkmz Offline
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Originally Posted by BazC
Because Modartt say it's pure modelling. Of course they could be lying by I've no reason to think they would.


4Front lies about modelling in TP, Yamaha lies about "no layers in CP1"..

To sell more copies maybe?

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: bkmz] #1438392 05/17/10 11:00 AM
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BazC Offline
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People lie about all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons but I have no reason to think Modartt are lying about this.

I couldn't find any info about how Truepianos works on their site at the moment but I seem to remember them being quite open about using a mix of samples and modelling in the past.


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Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: bkmz] #1438394 05/17/10 11:01 AM
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What I remember reading at one time, from Modartt, was that the hammer sounds were sampled. I'm not sure if that's still true. But ask on the Modartt forum. They'll clear up the question.

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: bkmz] #1438440 05/17/10 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bkmz
Few years ago I tried to reverse-engineer Pianoteq (i.e. to crack the demo version). What I found is that pianoteq.exe has some table of hardcoded data for every note inside, and I couldn't force PT to play missing notes, because data for that particular notes was missing.

BazC, you're right, I can't know for sure that this table consists of recorded samples. It could be a pre-calculated values of some kind.

But why are you so sure that it's not a samples, can you tell?



Hard coded data doesn't mean that it is samples. Pre-calculated values seem to be more likely.

The developers have said that (for example) a C3 piano cannot be tweaked to achieve a K1 piano. This points to pre-calculated data.

There is a reason for pre-coded data - the complexity of calculations required to completely model a piano sound cannot be done in real time with present day computers - our quad cores are just not up to it (as much as we wish to believe that they are).

Samples should be easy to detect - they are wave files and can be played in a wave editor.

Glenn

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: Glenn NK] #1438447 05/17/10 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Glenn NK

Samples should be easy to detect - they are wave files and can be played in a wave editor.


Don't discount wav data compressed with proprietary tools, making it rather more difficult to spot.

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: BazC] #1438453 05/17/10 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BazC
I couldn't find any info about how Truepianos works on their site at the moment but I seem to remember them being quite open about using a mix of samples and modelling in the past.

IIRC they use the term in their manual, but not on the web site text anymore.

If they are using waveguides for note decay in Truepianos they are only using one per note, because the result is indistinguishable from looping (i.e. lame).

I think the tendency is to call anything you can "modeling" as it sounds sexy and can give you a certain amount of street cred.

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: Jake Jackson] #1438498 05/17/10 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
What I remember reading at one time, from Modartt, was that the hammer sounds were sampled. I'm not sure if that's still true. But ask on the Modartt forum. They'll clear up the question.


You were absolutely right! I just found out that it contains a lot of flac files with sound of hammers striking muted strings. I'll tell the story and upload these files later.

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: bkmz] #1438613 05/17/10 07:42 PM
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If it does contain attack samples, that would be consistent with the Modartt patent, which strongly implies "samples" for the attacks. http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090241757

Extract:
"[0082]b(p,t) represents the percussive part of the sound (impact of the hammer on the strings, the structure) and any other component of the piano sound that cannot be modelled (or that can only be poorly modelled) by a decomposition into a sum of sines."

I'm not sure whether the "samples" are computed or recorded though.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 05/17/10 07:44 PM.
Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: sullivang] #1438820 05/18/10 07:06 AM
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Deleted by moderator

Last edited by BB Player; 05/19/10 03:57 PM. Reason: Violation of Pianoteq EULA
Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: bkmz] #1438830 05/18/10 07:33 AM
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Be careful... In their EULA it states, amongst other things: "Its component parts may not be separated".

Re: CA63 vs Pianoteq [Re: NikkiPiano] #1438840 05/18/10 07:51 AM
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bkmz, wow, very interesting - great detective work!

What an tremendous wealth of talent we have here on PianoWorld!

Cheers,
James
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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