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Hi Beeboss
Do you have a favourite jazz key ?
I’m curious because I know that you’re also a classical musician.
I think Chopin used Ab major a lot. Maybe he thought it sounded romantic.
And I reckon Brahms is amazing. I didn’t think that A major was a particularly interesting key until I heard his Intermezzo. He manages to make this major key sound pensive and mysterious.

BTW Wiz - Go ahead and post Green Dolphin St. I know the tune and I'm sure many others do. Although I already know it, I'm challenged to think of how to do it in Solo piano. I would be glad to get ideas. Maybe like a drone bass note.

It's been years since I've played it so I just tried to recall it today.

Well I do like Brahms's Em cello sonata rather a lot, but no I don't have a favourite key. Maybe if I had perfect pitch it would have more relevance to me.
I think I like ambiguous tonality the best.

Are you one of those people that hears different colours/tones/something inexplicable in different keys? I knew someone like that in university and she had perfect pitch. I myself wouldn't know what key a piece was in unless I had a reference (relative pitch).

I do know that if I normally play a piece in one key, and shift to another slightly higher or slightly lower then that can shape my thoughts as to whether the new key is 'lighter' or 'darker'.

Cool stuff here. I hear Giant Steps stuff in your first four bars, was that intended? I also like your feel on this take. It seems you're really looking at playing behind the beat. Was that your intent?

Some odd things I've been working on are combining unlikely tunes. For instance, since I was working on Nefertiti last, and VE recently, I put them together. It's surprising how well they fit (Nef melody with VE chords, slightly modified, with roots the same).

This idea came from the practice of referencing ie using bits of melodies of known tunes in your solos. In any case, I've found it really has helped me understand melody and chords in a different way.

I'll post a recording if I have a chance.

Hi scep
I can't even begin to tell you how relatively untrained my ear is compared to all of yours. Maybe I will blame it on my visual classical background ! I only know what key a song is when I look at the lead sheet or the score. AFTER I analyse a song, I DO hear different moods in different phrases, e.g. for me, Autumn Leaves alternates between happy and sad.

Beeboss
What are some examples of ambiguous tonality ? e.g. A minor ?

I've been playing it the last few days. My buddy asked for his recording device back so sadly I can't post anything.

Herbie Hancock does a wonderful solo version of it on an old album called The Piano. It's all solo stuff, he does Someday my prince will come as well. See if you can find it. Very sparse but totally Hancock.

Speaking of keys, I do find certain moods relate to different keys. The flats like Bb, Eb, Db have a mellow, warm feel, like chicken soup. C major is like plain vanilla.

G and D major (#) is like that fresh Australian chardonnay. Ab would be that rich Shiraz. And B major is like that long lost cousin who you can never remember! Can't think of the last time I played a tune in B! haha

I don't have perfect pitch either but can hear differences between flat and sharp.

I play in C# a lot, but find that Db is too dark for me.

I think differences are more evident in Baroque instruments, and particularly unfretted stringed instruments. I believe when you have no frets the way you approach different notes may affect the tuning. Keys like E, A, D, G will sound slightly different than Eb, Ab etc. Come to think of it, when playing valve instruments the same kind of thing applies, but with different considerations (I play lots of instruments). But hopefully on piano, assuming your piano tuner knows what he is doing, will equalize the temperment, making every key sound like the next. So, for those with good ears, when accompanying a stringed or valve/brass instrument, you may find that some keys do sound brighter, and some darker, or some happier etc.

lol wiz, chicken soup !!!! I must admit I hadn't thought of Bb, Eb, Db that way.

Scep et al
I know you joke around sometimes but what is the difference between C# and Db ? C# major is a very happy and rich sounding key to my ears, but with even the mention of Db, I believe that my mind already anticipates serious even before I hear one note of the song.

How can there be a difference when your fingers are pressing the same buttons and the instrument is vibrating the same strings?

I suppose I meant pieces which are beyond a 'classical' sense of tonality. Like Messiaen, Shostakovich, Ligeti, and most modern jazz. Basically I like stuff with has lots of rich harmony.

I guess I can see a similarity between VE and giant steps, they have the same kind of approach to harmony. A product of the time I guess. Maybe Coltrane was influenced by Bill's approach, maybe he even played VE, who knows. Certainly they were playing together in the months before Giant Steps was recorded.
I was trying to lay back on the time because I noticed that I was rushing a bit, probably as I am not that good at playing in 5. If you try to record just 1/8s over the bassline you may well find that it is not easy to keep it 100% in time.

Beeboss, I'm glad I have confirmation from a professional that there isn't a difference. I always write my chords thinking C# major but I notice that most jazz people tend to write chords using Db. So is it primarily an issue of preference ?

I've never thought of the key of C#. It seems really odd.
C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#, C#
I guess on a chromatic harmonica it would be easier thinking C# than Db.

Hi Custard, it is only my view that the changes are purely notational, others maybe feel differently, and that is only for the piano. as others have said, when you have real fretless strings involved there is a different relationship to the tempered scale. String players microtune to get a more perfect tuning than is possible on the piano.
Personally I prefer thinking of flat keys, they are more jazz!

(btw technically I am an ex-professional)

beeboss,

I think telling Cus to start thinking in Db instead of C# might be a good piece of advice. I'm pretty sure calling A Train in C# will get you some laughs. I'm pretty sure Ella called it Db. And chords such as D#-7, E#-7 and B#-7b5 aren't that common in the real book.

But yeah, if you play some instruments that just makes it easier to think sharps rather than flats (like a chromatic harp), then that might become relevant to learn those odd chords.

Thats it. Trumpets and saxophones prefer flat keys, and guitars prefer sharp keys (well E A D and G at least). Thats why jazz tunes are usually in Bb F and Eb and rock tunes in E and A

BTW - Beeboss, I was just trying My Romance in 5/4 and the nice thing I'm finding about odd time signatures is that it changes your phrasing. I find it refreshing.

Now VE is probably too jerky in 5/4 for my taste but in general, the mixing of a 3/4 with a 4/4 or 2/4 is good for shaking one out of a routine. I'm really enjoying it.

On Giant Steps vs. VE: It's funny that you guys say that now but when I first introduced VE as a suggested tune a while back, I said it was "Giant-Steps-Like".

I found though that I'm not yet able to come up with interesting melodies on Giant Steps. You did a great job with it. It's like there's not enough beats to develop the idea. Any tips on approaching this?

Excellent. I never tried that in 5 but why not? I always find it forces me to try some different things.I usually prefer 7 though, its easier.



Just play the difficult bars very slowly over and over and over. Write out a line over it and learn it. Do that 10 times. Then do it all again and again. I try to think arpeggios or pentatonics on those difficult bits.