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4 against 3
#1434576 05/11/10 04:40 PM
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2 against 3 I can easily feel.

4 against 3 I think I do correctly, but don't know how to check myself.
any tips on how you feel 4 against 3?

...working on Mozart's Piano Concerto in C, 467, Andante


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Re: 4 against 3
MrsCamels #1434581 05/11/10 04:48 PM
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"not-ver-y-diff-i-cult... not-ver-y-diff-i-cult..."

watch THIS

He does 4 against 3 at the end.


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Re: 4 against 3
Legal Beagle #1434920 05/12/10 02:37 AM
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2 vs 3 can be not very hard not very hard or not diff-i--cult not diff-i-cult, 4vs 3 can also be when will he come to-day.

Re: 4 against 3
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Interesting...

3: * * * * * * * * * * * *

4: * * * * * * * * * * * *

The video isn't extremely accurate, but it might help.

Actually, I am now looking at Beethoven Op.10/1 Finale. I think the hardest things in the piece is actually cross rhythms.

Measures: 34,35,91,92 : 4 against 3
Measure: 67 : 4 against 2 ( cry )

Oh, and Prestissimo...

Re: 4 against 3
PLAT #1434993 05/12/10 08:01 AM
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"Not very difficult" does not quite have the right rhythm to me. When I say it, the syllables of difficult all come out with an even rhythm instead of the variation needed for this polyrhythm.

I tend to use Pass the golden butter. (There's another word often used in place of golden.)

Rich

Last edited by DragonPianoPlayer; 05/12/10 08:02 AM.

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Re: 4 against 3
DragonPianoPlayer #1435008 05/12/10 08:42 AM
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I was taught to play such cross-rhythms by trying to mathematically place the notes where they belong. This is an elementary technique at best, and doesn't work most of the time, especially for what you're talking about.

Now I try to get the rhythm down first and comfortable with doing that effortlessly. Once that is ingrained into my head and doesn't need to be thought out mechanically (what notes am I playing, what rhythm, how many notes in a measure, how do they relate), it's a little easier to add the melody-line. You must still keep the rhythm in your head, but give it equal time with the melody-line - rather than each one informing the other's actions.
This is how I handle it. It seems a difficult subject to talk about - much eaiser to feel it, but then how to share that? Not sure..

Re: 4 against 3
Mattardo #1435090 05/12/10 11:27 AM
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and how to practice f.i. Chopin's 1st nocturne then?


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Re: 4 against 3
MrsCamels #1435098 05/12/10 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MrsCamels
2 against 3 I can easily feel.

4 against 3 I think I do correctly, but don't know how to check myself.
any tips on how you feel 4 against 3?




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Re: 4 against 3
Carey #1435142 05/12/10 12:47 PM
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I use the words

1 af-ter 3 be-fore

Works nice when playing slowly

Doesn't help at all when playing fast.

Fast, I try to keep whatever rhythm is the constant before and after and make the odd rhythm fit it.


"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
Re: 4 against 3
Carey #1435143 05/12/10 12:47 PM
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Exactly what PLAT wrote. To do any sort of polyrhythms: 3 against 4, or 4 against 5, or whatever, you find the least common multiple (LCM, remember in grade school?) of those two numbers.

In this case 3 x 4 = 12 is the LCM. Write out 12 discrete beats then separate them into 3 equal parts and 4 equal parts, then count 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12, and play. At first it may seem slow but this ensures exact placement of the polyrhythms.

Re: 4 against 3
lilylady #1435224 05/12/10 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lilylady
I use the words

1 af-ter 3 be-fore

But I don't think the words make sense since within the group of 4 notes only two are before.

Re: 4 against 3
pianoloverus #1435239 05/12/10 03:20 PM
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I use "This Is - n't Hard At All"

Re: 4 against 3
fuzzy8balls #1435257 05/12/10 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by fuzzy8balls
Exactly what PLAT wrote. To do any sort of polyrhythms: 3 against 4, or 4 against 5, or whatever, you find the least common multiple (LCM, remember in grade school?) of those two numbers.
[...]


Do you think that this LCM system would work in something more complex, such as the third of the Barber "Excursions" for piano where the polyrhythm is 7 in the right hand against 8 in the left hand for the first 12 measures, and then later for other extended passages of the same polyrhythm?

Or, in cases like this, is it better to "work in" the 7 of the right hand by feel against a steady 8 of the left hand without trying to work on an LCM of 56?

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: 4 against 3
BruceD #1435294 05/12/10 05:27 PM
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I must be doing this wrong. I simply hit the first upper and lower notes simultaneously, then alternate with the RH hand getting hit second (after the simultaneous hit) and last (assuming of course it's the RH that has the 4 beats.

Is this incorrect?




Last edited by cardguy; 05/12/10 05:27 PM.
Re: 4 against 3
BruceD #1435298 05/12/10 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by fuzzy8balls
Exactly what PLAT wrote. To do any sort of polyrhythms: 3 against 4, or 4 against 5, or whatever, you find the least common multiple (LCM, remember in grade school?) of those two numbers.
[...]


Do you think that this LCM system would work in something more complex, such as the third of the Barber "Excursions" for piano where the polyrhythm is 7 in the right hand against 8 in the left hand for the first 12 measures, and then later for other extended passages of the same polyrhythm?

Or, in cases like this, is it better to "work in" the 7 of the right hand by feel against a steady 8 of the left hand without trying to work on an LCM of 56?

Regards,


It's best to just not play Barber. But seriously,
I don't know about fuzzy, but I don't think the LCM method works to well for that and judging by recordings I hear, most pianist aren't exactly great at polyrhythms anyway. Horowitz is even pretty sloppy with this sometimes.

Re: 4 against 3
Damon #1435360 05/12/10 07:17 PM
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Cardguy, there is a bit of a rhythm to it - not just alternation. It's so much easier to "show" than explain. It's "long (together)" "quick quick" "long" "quick quick". Does that make any sense? You do alternate them, yes, but not totally evenly.

Re: 4 against 3
Twinklefingers #1435386 05/12/10 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Twinklefingers
Cardguy, there is a bit of a rhythm to it - not just alternation. It's so much easier to "show" than explain. It's "long (together)" "quick quick" "long" "quick quick". Does that make any sense? You do alternate them, yes, but not totally evenly.


Yes, it does make sense. I have a lousy ear, but a fair sense of rhythm. (I think I'd have made a decent drummer.) I checked out what I was doing against your suggestion and seems I'm pretty much doing that without thinking about it, although I sometimes vary it as well..(a bit longer, a bit quicker etc.)

Appreciate the guidance very much :-)

Last edited by cardguy; 05/12/10 08:08 PM.
Re: 4 against 3
cardguy #1435536 05/13/10 04:11 AM
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For any one that is interested, there is something I would like to say.

e.g. Schubert D.850 (D major Sonata)
The beginning of the first mvmt has shown that one side of the polyrhythm is more prominent. In this case, the 4 quavers (8th).

One of the reason we can't play well polyrhythms is that we lose the beat count. In the example above, I would like the triplets in the right hand "flow". The most important part of playing polyrhythm (I think, but do correct me if neccessary) is to keep the pulse (at least for faster music). My teacher said in the example of Beethoven Op.10/1 finale, to play the first note of each group on the beat, then just don't play any note in unison.

Besides, not a lot of us are doing it right anyway... listen to the 1st mvmt of moonlight sonata.




Re: 4 against 3
PLAT #1435539 05/13/10 04:29 AM
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The rhythm of 4:3 is like dotted 8th, 16th, 8th, 8th, 16th, dotted 8th, so the video is actually quite inaccurate (the 2:3 was correct, though).
The problem is that it's terribly slow to try to play polyrhythms like this.
I'm struggling with polyrhythms myself atm, so this thread is quite useful for me smile

Re: 4 against 3
PLAT #1435541 05/13/10 04:31 AM
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I have written some 5 against 4 and 5 against 3 in my music. In fact I try to pass it at 'relatively advanced' rather than 'impossible'! laugh The trick, in my piece is that the quantplets and triplets and so on have been happening before, so the new division gets added at a later part, so it seems somewhat easier to keep the pace on the one hand and change the other.

That said, when I encounter such issues as a pianist, I just seem to devide my head and ears. I just play 7 against 8 if needed! (not happened actually but just saying...)

Bruce, would it be possible to scan that part of the score alone? I mean the 3-4 bars before and after, or at least an example? No copyright infrigment this way, but I would just be curious to see and attempt to play it. I love Barber's music!

PLAT: The moonlight sonata's been SO everheard, so chances are that one is playing what they heard, rather than what they're reading. Futher to that, I get a feeling that a lot of pianists are playing triplets and the 16th goes towards being a 16th from a sexplet if that makes sense. Not from a normal 16.

EDIT: Oh well... I'll see if I can post my polyrhythmic piece, with a computer recording, to get an idea perhaps(?) No promises yet, but I think it can be done...

EDIT2: http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/poly-example.pdf

Have fun! laugh

Last edited by Nikolas; 05/13/10 04:46 AM.
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