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Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1433627 05/10/10 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
You don't have to "follow" the discussion, you know. If you are, it would seem to mean you're interested in the subject, which is good. If you dislike my posts, you can "ignore" them, formally or informally.
I think telling someone they can use the ignore feature is like someone who constanty blasts a boombox telling the people around him they can use earplugs.

And telling someone they don't have to follow a discussion is like going to a discussion group where one person tries to do/does all the talking and tells people to leave if they don't like it.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 05/10/10 02:13 PM.
Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
pianoloverus #1433658 05/10/10 02:59 PM
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As I said, please let's see if there may be additional posts of substance.

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1433668 05/10/10 03:14 PM
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[sticking in my two cents for no good reason:]

For me, Mark consistently makes good substantive points on complex issues. His tendency to micro-manage and dominate a conversation can occasionally be annoying (sorry Mark! smile ), but that's just his style, and I'll gladly take it along with the body of scholarly and good-natured contributions he makes.

Bruce, it reminds me of a time when you gave a highly detailed analysis/criticism of a poster's performance, and someone complained that you were too picky, critical and exacting. The analogy isn't perfect, but in both cases I'll gladly champion the detailed, articulate response, even if it annoy some folks.

Peace on us all, and here's to articulation and substance! smile

-Jason

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
beet31425 #1433777 05/10/10 05:21 PM
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Thanks, and no problem. smile

This subject is, by its nature, one that is complex and depends on being looked at closely and in detail. If we're going to do justice to it, we can't be simple. If you want to be simple, yes, just say hairpins are crescendos and decrescendos and you're done with it.

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1433808 05/10/10 06:10 PM
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In any conversation - intelligent and otherwise - in which I have been involved or to which I have been privy, when a participant is told both to "cut it out" and "give it a rest," the source for such admonitions is always based on an individual's insistently repeating or harping on a single and unpopular idea.

I made one - count them - one direct response to Mark C on the interpretation of 'hairpins' (post 1427801 on May 1, at 10:26 a.m.), and I have remained silent on the issue as it continued for over a week because I had nothing of any intelligence to say nor any informed opinion to add.

Now, by my pointing out - without comment - that the thread continues long after it was observed by its chief contributor that there wasn't much left to say on the issue, I have been publicly admonished to "cut it out" and "give it a rest" because I'm "better than that kind of stuff"! What "kind of stuff" may I ask?

This is so contrary to the reality of my participation in this thread that I don't know what to make of those observations except to wonder where they come from and to feel highly indignant at being treated in such a dismissive and condescending manner.


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Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
BruceD #1433933 05/10/10 08:45 PM
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I don't understand your motivation in making your comment, Bruce. Obviously by your indignation I can tell that you didn't mean it to be the caustic, mocking, "Gee, you just can't shut up, can you?" that it appeared to be at first glance. In general, I only interpret a comment like yours as not being intentionally snide if there has already been some good-natured banter and teasing between the two parties. Either that or the person making the comment is a bit new to the Internet world and doesn't mean any harm. However, you aren't a newbie, and you have criticized Mark's posting style/habits in the past with apparent irritation. Sorry, but at the time I really thought you were being very snide, and I understand why Mark reacted the way he did.

By the way, I was the one who kept the discussion going after Mark said what he said, and prompted him to reply further. To me this thread has been a very interesting discussion (up until the last few posts).


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Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Julian_ #1433950 05/10/10 09:12 PM
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This thread is deceptive because the title is "rev etude contradicting dynamics." I didn't click to open it because the Revolutionary Etude is not something that I've worked on, and the lack of capitalization turned me off (sorry OP). By the time I opened it because of the speed of growth, it had already blown waaay over my head.

Regarding the hairpin issue, I'm still unsure of the validity of Bernstein's arguments, although my teacher is in the flexible interpretation camp. It seems to be based on some inconsistencies in the original manuscripts combined with personal interpretation. All the images of manuscripts I've seen have been very messy, and it's impossible to know exactly what the composer meant unless we have a recording. And some composers don't even play what they wrote! Bartok is one such example. I don't know if this has been brought up already, but does anyone have evidence that Chopin actually meant "expansion" with hairpins? There is some doubt that he actually meant dynamics, but so far there is no evidence that he meant anything else.

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1433954 05/10/10 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C

This subject is, by its nature, one that is complex and depends on being looked at closely and in detail. If we're going to do justice to it, we can't be simple. If you want to be simple, yes, just say hairpins are crescendos and decrescendos and you're done with it.

As a scientist I look for general principles. So what I am asking is this, while there may be some exceptions, is it generally true that an opening hairpin represents a crescendo and a closing one represents a decrescendo? For example, if I see the hairpins indicated below in Chopin's "Hades" prelude, shouldn't I instinctively swell or gradually decrease the volume?
[Linked Image]


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
BruceD #1433957 05/10/10 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
..........after it was observed by its chief contributor that there wasn't much left to say on the issue....

Not what that meant.

See prior reply to you.

If your goal (at some level) is to get this thread closed, unfortunately you may succeed.

Originally Posted by SlatterFan
By the way, I was the one who kept the discussion going after Mark said what he said, and prompted him to reply further. To me this thread has been a very interesting discussion (up until the last few posts).

Thanks very much for pointing that out; I wasn't going to do it myself. And anyway, I didn't need it in order to reply to him well enough.

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Frozenicicles #1433960 05/10/10 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Frozenicicles
.....does anyone have evidence that Chopin actually meant "expansion" with hairpins? There is some doubt that he actually meant dynamics, but so far there is no evidence that he meant anything else.

I'd reply, but a couple of people would get mad that I'm doing another post. ha

But seriously folks......Slatter and I covered that quite a bit on here.
Cliff's Notes: Probably not what you'd call "evidence," but IMO lots of what I'd call just short of that.

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
jazzyprof #1433970 05/10/10 09:36 PM
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I'm screwed. smile
If I reply, a couple of people will think I'm hogging the discussion. If I don't, you may think I'm rude.

BTW.....the rhyme was unintentional.

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1433983 05/10/10 09:43 PM
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I would be very disappointed to see any thread closed if there is a discussion continuing, whether that discussions involves or interests me or not.

My point - which seems already lost in the shuffle - was that my integrity was being indirectly maligned by my being publicly told to "cut it out" and to "give it a rest," as if I were continuously harassing someone or continuously bringing up an issue which was unpopular with those contributing to the thread. I still don't know what I was guilty of, having made very few contributions to this thread.

I guess the solution is to make even fewer contributions.



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Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
BruceD #1433993 05/10/10 10:09 PM
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You have been, Bruce -- not continuously, but a few times. And indeed it isn't exactly "harassment" either.
But whatever we should call it.....if you could stop it, that would be great.

It has made me hesitate to reply to your posts, and in case you haven't noticed, I hardly reply to you any more because of this. I would be delighted not to have to try to avoid you, because you make great contributions.

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1433995 05/10/10 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I'm screwed. smile

Ah, you lucky guy!


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
jazzyprof #1434002 05/10/10 10:29 PM
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Jazzy -- In that Chopin Prelude example, I agree that the hairpins mean just cresc and decresc.
Even by the approach I'm advocating, hairpins may amount to just that. (As I've said.)

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1434144 05/11/10 03:52 AM
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WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1434230 05/11/10 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I'm screwed. smile
If I reply, a couple of people will think I'm hogging the discussion. If I don't, you may think I'm rude.

I think the exasperation comes from your transformation of a forum thread into what amounts to a chat room. It used to annoy me but I got over it. I seem to remember a thread where you thought the OP was rude for not responding that same day. I don't think that is the way most people use this forum, evidenced by the fact that your post count dwarfs everyone with the same amount of time here and most people overall.

Originally Posted by Mark_C

BTW.....the rhyme was unintentional.


Not anymore. smile

Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Horowitzian #1434231 05/11/10 08:05 AM
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So you impugn this lovely thread with your quip in shouting caps, do you, Horowitzian? Hmmm, in that case, I challenge you to a duel: sharpened hairpins at dawn, your choice of opening or closing. laugh

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking recently of how intriguing it would be if Bernstein's book arrives and I see some examples of Chopin hairpins that don't make musical sense as purely dynamic indications but do make sense as indications with a broader meaning. I would find this persuasive, and I would revisit Chopin's music with a fresh outlook.

Then I thought of what could happen the other way, for example, what evidence would be persuasive that hairpins are simple dynamic indications? For example, if we were to identify three music textbooks, one from 1740-1780, one from 1780-1820, and one from 1820-1860, all of which give a straightforward description of hairpins as dynamic markings, and all of which were used and recommended by leading musicians of the day: would this be sufficient evidence that in Mozart's and Chopin's lifetime, hairpins carried straightforward dynamic meaning? (N.B. This is not a "trick" question, and I do not have such textbooks standing by. I am just wondering.)

[Gil Grissom of CSI: "We don't impose our hopes on the evidence."]


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Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Mark_C #1434241 05/11/10 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C

If I reply, a couple of people will think I'm hogging the discussion. If I don't, you may think I'm rude.


With around 50 posts in this thread so far, there's little doubt in anyone's mind you're hogging the discussion (and this thread is far from an isolated example of this). And hogging the discussion is rude. Some don't mind this as much as others just as some could put up with someone who wants to do all the talking at dinner. Your comment that you need to reply because, if you don't, others will think you're rude is just an excuse to justify what you're doing.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 05/11/10 08:28 AM.
Re: rev etude contradicting dynamics
Damon #1434385 05/11/10 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Damon
.....I seem to remember a thread where you thought the OP was rude for not responding that same day.....

It was much longer than that. And not "rude," but unappreciative. I had done a detailed reply to a detailed question. I appreciated when he did come back, but that (and a couple of similar examples, where the people never said anything) have made me avoid doing such replies to people I don't know.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
....With around 50 posts in this thread so far....

Are we to understand you took the time and effort to count?? (I mean, I myself had no idea how many it is.)
If so, I have a greater follower than I imagined. [Linked Image]

As has been pointed out to you, after my first few posts I've been almost entirely answering people who addressed things to me.

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