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As promised here is another recording of my piano in EBVT III. This really isn't a piece per se, but 2 motifs that I've played for years (the "prettier" one of which I wrote when I was 13!) sort of assembled into a piece. For lack of a better name I'm just calling this Discovery.

Discovery-HighQuality(warning ~14MB)
Discovery-MidQuality
Discovery-LowQuality

Copyright 2010 Ryan Fogarty (this music may not be reproduced for commercial purposes... wishful thinking... )

Enjoy!
Ryan

Bill, I didn't make a comment about which one was which because of two factors. One is that there can be a lot of smoke and mirrors involved in the recordings; move a mike this way or that way, sample rates, editing, tweaking, ect. I could take any first year recording engineer and have him make a stellar tuning in any temperament pale in comparison to an lesser quality one with a bit of software and knowhow (in the context of recorded music).

Secondly, my interests in this thread have more to do with the descriptions that are used to differentiate the two. Like somebody once mentioned on another thread, its like differentiating the taste of brown mustard from yellow; so far, all I read here is that it tastes browner. My wife and I were eating pie and cookies the other day and we each disagreed about which one was sweeter....really, where do you go from there?


I can accept that some people find the EBVT better for their own reasons, but would you be happy that they do so because its a fad gaining momentum, or because there is something actually of merit that makes it so? With Greshams Law applied, you probably don't even realize that EBVT or any other temperament on the fringes of practicality have never had it so good. We live in a world where Andy Warhol could get almost 12 million $ for a screened image of a soup can and top art critics find a computer enhanced image of Mona Lisa (her bust was increased slightly in size) more pleasing than the original. Pardon me saying, but I do look into the reasoning behind peoples tastes with some skepticism in this day and age.

Bill, I tune the way I do because its something myself and my customers are familiar with. Not because of ignorance as you seem to think, nor because I choose not to be fellow member of the club.

Familiarity brings a comfort zone to most pianists. They perform the best when the piano is familiar to them in feel, touch, tone and tune. Its true that some like to experiment on any of these things, but from the ones I meet, most don't. So I give them what they want, and they pay me.

My refusal to discuss things with you pertains only to posts where you resort to name calling or PT(Gooning)me. That simply follows the forum etiquette expected of us here.

First of all, Ryan, thanks for your post. Wow, that sounds fantastic!! Bravo for your tuning ability, and your composing as well! I love new age music. It has a beautifuly rich and colorful harmonious sound to it in EBVT III, and anyone that says differently, has another agenda. I could listen to that all day, and never tire of it! Just beautiful.

From my perspective Emmery, there are no smoke and mirrors here, and I never intended there to be any. There was NO manipulation done to these recordings in order to make EBVT III sound better than ET or vice-versa. I am not a professional recording engineer. I do not know the 'tricks of the trade' to manipulate and add this and that to the recordings. These recordings were not done in a professional studio, but in my living room under every day normal conditions. The only processing done to these recordings was a normalization of the volume, in order to make both examples the same volume, that is it. The fact that they sound as good as they do is quite impressive, and is due to the digital recorder, the mics, the piano, my tuning ability, and the temperament. If they were done in a professional studio, then I could understand your being concerned about the manipulation of the recording to make one sound better than the other.

Yes, different mics in different positions produce different sounds, but in this case, they do not and cannot change the temperament to warrant their dismissal in this thread.

Emmery, please feel free to record some of your work and post it in here, just as Ryan did above, or start another thread. I would like to hear it. I am serious, and I am not being facetious when I say that. In fact, everyone is invited to post their work here, or in a new thread...why not have more of this type of discussion...it opens peoples minds to a different way of tuning. Indeed, why not?

Soon, we will have another excellent example of EBVT III and ET to listen to. Stay tuned!

No, we all know that is a lie. There was only one factor. You could not be sure of which was which and that disturbs you greatly. You think the EBVT III ought to sound bad, no matter what music is played on it. Only ET would sound right to you. But now you find out something you did not expect so you are scrambling to save face. Forget it, you have already lost.

I suggest you stick to what you have already told me: you won't discuss anything with me, you won't join PTG and take the exams and you won't spend any of your Canadian money in the USA.

Look for other threads where you can contribute effectively. You have already made your opinion about unequal temperaments very well known. You have chosen to attack and ridicule any such notion. You have clearly stated that you only want to tune and only believe in the way you already tune as the only acceptable way to tune. So, for you, there are no ifs, ands or buts, you have already said all that you can say.

What more could you say on this topic that you have not already said? You only believe in ET. You would not dare to try anything but ET for a performing artist and the same extends down to your lowliest customer. You have already made your decision and determination. By spending even one second reading anything in this thread, you are wasting your time.

By spending even one second to try to tell everyone that the EBVT III is the wrong way to tune, that only ET is right, you are wasting your time and energy. We already know what you think about this topic. I, for one, don't care what you think, don't want to read what you think because whatever you say, it will never change in the slightest way what I think and what I do.

I have already made up my mind and have made my decisions just as you have. I will continue to tune nearly all of my customer's pianos in the EBVT III. I will NOT tune any piano in ET!!! Go ahead and think whatever you will about that, write whatever you will about that but whatever you do, it will not change my mind or influence what I do in any way, whatsoever.

What I learned about tuning, I learned long ago and put into practice long ago. I also became aware of the most common blunders that tuners make and the most common myths that most tuners believe before you ever learned anything about tuning at all.

Wow! Ryan, I certainly did enjoy your composition. I could really tell what key you were playing in and when. Thank you so much for your contribution! I heard some really amazing sounds that are not heard from a piano tuned in ET. The Key of F just sounds so pure!

Quotes by Bill Bremmer

"No, we all know that is a lie. There was only one factor. You could not be sure of which was which and that disturbs you greatly. You think the EBVT III ought to sound bad, no matter what music is played on it. Only ET would sound right to you. But now you find out something you did not expect so you are scrambling to save face. Forget it, you have already lost."

Bill, you make a lot of assumptions and then resort to calling me a lier. Nowhere did I say that I even bothered to listen to the recordings. My interests were more to do with the descriptive terminology used by others to describe their opinions about the recordings. Like I said, no assurances can be made that the recordings were not altered that would satisfy a truly unbiased listener. Contrary to what some people may believe, a recording studio is not needed to do so, plenty of cheap software out there and well known techniques that could be used for that purpose. I don't mean to diss the recording, I just abstain from getting involved in something I cannot be sure is on the level.

"I suggest you stick to what you have already told me: you won't discuss anything with me, you won't join PTG and take the exams and you won't spend any of your Canadian money in the USA."

I had dinner in Buffalo NY last night and live within walking distance of your country and both visit and spend money there regularly (especially since your $ has taken a dump as of late). Your assumptions are incorrect again. The exams have flaws according to you, the very foundation of it is in a temperament that have refused to use for many years...whats your point? Besides, I did far more exams with greater depth then the generic minimalist one you suggest.

"Look for other threads where you can contribute effectively. You have already made your opinion about unequal temperaments very well known. You have chosen to attack and ridicule any such notion. You have clearly stated that you only want to tune and only believe in the way you already tune as the only acceptable way to tune. So, for you, there are no ifs, ands or buts, you have already said all that you can say."

I don't ridicule the temperament(s), only your assumptions when they are intended to mock or put down people who do things differently than you. You think that tens of thousands of tuners out there tune in RW. BS To do so, you would have to dismiss the idea that they check for evenly progressing M3's(black & white keys), you would have to assume they don't use an ETD, you would have to assume they didn't pass tests (PTG or others) that are set on the foundations of ET...not RW. I agree with you that some tuners will choose a path that skips important checks that could easily lead to the said RW temperaments, but its a small number than what you claim. Your smoke and mirrors of claiming a bigger problem exists then really does only serves to elevate your one a only solution. Youtube is hardly the place to look for quality recordings or exclusively fine performers.

"I have already made up my mind and have made my decisions just as you have. I will continue to tune nearly all of my customer's pianos in the EBVT III. I will NOT tune any piano in ET!!! Go ahead and think whatever you will about that, write whatever you will about that but whatever you do, it will not change my mind or influence what I do in any way, whatsoever.

What I learned about tuning, I learned long ago and put into practice long ago. I also became aware of the most common blunders that tuners make and the most common myths that most tuners believe before you ever learned anything about tuning at all."

Assumptions again Bill. What seems painfully obvious to me is that you carry a single EBVT III hammer as the only tool you wish to use any more, you say so yourself. It comes as no surprise to me that everything out there by you is viewed as a RW temperament nail.

Thanks Bill and grandpianoman!

Grandpianoman, I can't take credit for the tuning just the playing and recording. Nick Mauel did the excellent job tuning my HG-218! Also, looking forward to hearing some more from you too.

Happy Sunday (especially to all the Mothers out there),
Ryan

Hi, Emmery.

When I read this post yesterday, I thought about responding, then thought better of it since I am not a professional recording engineer, professional tuner, or professional musician.

But the paragraph above did bother me, especially, because, if anything, I've been a practicing consumer my whole life.

So, you can certainly discount my lack of training as far as hearing perfect unisons and intervals beating in +/- cents and the like. And you can discount my interpretation of what I hear in recordings posted here (that sound pretty hi-fidelity to me through my mid-priced Grados--I mean, I could hear damper felt in Glen's recordings for crineoutloud). And you can discount my opinions of what I hear in the playing of music, though as an amateur pianist, I know a little about what I hear coming from the instrument...

But as a consumer with a heart, I want to reiterate my story, for you in particular, and anyone else who cares to read it.

I always thought my Lester spinet, which I've had for about 15 years, could sound better than it did. It seemed like a solid piano, had a nice touch, and sang with a pretty tone. But tuner after tuner would leave notes behind, which irked me. Last summer, I got really serious about playing again--truly passionate about something of myself that I had neglected for years. So, I found a highly respected tuner, who gave my piano a pristine ET tuning in late August '09. It was truly better than I had ever heard it. So, I asked him what he thought about regulating and voicing it. His opinion was that it would be more than the piano was worth. My opinion was that as soon as I had it tuned three times, I'd invested more than the piano was worth.

After this tuning, I kept a list of problems I was finding with certain keys/hammers/pedals, sqeaks/hisses/etc.. I'd also been reading Braide White, that I picked up at the used book store, to see if there was anything I might be able to do myself to improve my piano.

December rolled around, and I got the bright idea that if I could get my sound into my computer, I could make a little CD for family as a Christmas present. The previous five years, I had been helping somebody edit music and had learned a little about editing wave files using CoolEdit Pro, but had no recording experience. I did have some microphones that belonged to my dad, though, and things were starting to gel in my mind. So I found out how to get sound into my computer using what I had plus $150 for a little input device.

I called the tuner so that I could get another prisine tuning, though I realized that in recording, I would still have to walk over the creaky floor boards of my piano to get anything half-way decent--but it was just going to family, and I figured I could use a little reverb to dress it up.

When the tuner came, I asked him to go over my list with me, told him I was committed to this piano, and wanted him to give me an estimate for regulating and voicing. It was clear he thought I was a fool. "You'll be the first customer that ever asked me to regulate a spinet!" were his exact words. His estimate was on the high side. He gave me a slap-dash tuning, running straight up the keyboard with the ETD, didn't go back to do any fine tuning or even test intervals. I told him I'd consider his estimate and paid for the tuning, though I wasn't happy with it. Like I said, I'm not a professional, but I could tell the difference between the tuning he gave me in August, and the one in December.

So, I made my little Christmas CD, but wasn't happy with the quality of the recording. As I was searching the Internet to learn more about recording, I discovered Piano World. After a coulple of days in Pianist Corner, I noticed the Tuner-Technicians forum, and dove into a thread called "Hysterical Tunings," because I thought it might be funny. It certainly wasn't funny, as you know, but it started me on a path of discovery that has truly opened up possibilities for me.

When I read Bill's posts about EBVT III, I knew enough about temperaments to wonder if this way of tuning would make my Lester sound better. I wrote Bill an e-mail to ask if he knew anyone in my area that tuned as he described. Lo and behold, Bill considered Rockford, IL, which is 90 miles away from Madison, WI, his area, and even had other customers in my neighborhood. We set up a date.

Bill spent a good three and a half or four hours with my piano the first time he tuned it in January. As he was tuning, he kept finding and fixing the things on my list, which I had not shared with him. I would say, "Is that the G?" and he'd say, "Yep." I'd say, "Is that the E?" and he'd say, "Yep." He found them all. Then, as he was tuning, he would reach under the back of the keys and do this lifting, plunking thing, and I asked, "What are you doing?" and he said, "A little regulating." He fixed the squeaky pedal, demonstrated the pipe organ effect, and asked me to play a tune for him. My first impression was the one I came around to after several days of playing tons of different music for hours--that is, that my piano sounded better than it ever had before, especially in the upper bass. I said, "It feels different." Bill said, "That's because I did some regulation."

Now, mind you, I had not told Bill about my bad experience with the tuner before he arrived, although bits of the story came out as he was working. Bill charged me his normal tuning fee for all that work, when the other tuner was going to charge me 10 times that to make a big hairy deal out of what Bill did in an afternoon. I added what I could to Bill's pay because I was so grateful for all of his work. After writing this, I wish I had added more!

It took me a couple of days of playing to get familiar with the new temperament. I liked what I was hearing, but I was definietly sensitive to the difference, and I was still judging it. I kept telling my wife, who doensn't really get any of this, including my obsession with playing the piano in the first place, that I wasn't sure what I was hearing. Then a few hours later, I would say, I really think I like this. Then, finally the next day, I told her, "I really like what Bill did to my piano. I really, really like this new temperament. I think I understand it. It makes the piano sing!"

So, whether you want to call it fad or not, my sense of it all is that I got treated totally right by a tuning artist who was interested in making my piano sound the best that it possibly can. When Bill came to tune in April, he discovered a problem with the damper system alignment that will take some extra time to fix. I could see it with my own eyes, between a sixteenth or a thirty-secondth of an inch problem, which solves another mystery and that I will be thrilled to have done, since I'm sure Bill will do it right and charge me a fair price for the work. And when I'm gone, somebody is going to get a really, really fine little working vintage spinet piano to enjoy.

I, for one, appreciate this sweet heart of a man who traveled 90 miles twice now to improve my life. I don't consider EBVT III a fad--I consider it an innovation worth recognizing. I can still appreciate a finely tuned ET, but I will continue to enthuse about EBVT III. I think professional and amatuer performers need to know about it, and ought to be able to ask for the temperament on their performance pianos. In my humble opinion, your reference to Gresham's Law is totally unfair and a beautiful example of "invective." So, by way of measured response, perhaps what Bill is finding and fighting as he encounters new pianos to tune, which have been left in Reverse Well and sloppy ET, is the manifestation of "Sturgeon's Law?"*

--Andy Strong
Amatuer Pianist, Tuning Customer, EBVT III Proponent and Enthusiast

____
*"Ninety percent of everything is crud."

Sounds good but.....a 90 mile drive followed by four hours of work for a "normal tuning fee"? That is not what I would consider a fair price.

Andy, thanks for your response and its especially appreciated that you stayed on course without resorting to name calling or assumptions about myself or others that continue to tune on the "dark side", as Bill envisions it.

Your experience is not that uncommon in this day and age in an unregulated trade. The time devoted to tuning and the techs experience has far more to do with the quality of a tuning IMHO, than a choice of reasonably similar temperament. There are good and not so good tunings of all types out there. Its quite possible that there are other tuners/techs out there that could have made your spinet shine better than the one you had before Bill, even though you might not think so.

Your posting does remind me of a cliche scenario of two people doing each other a favour so I hope you understand my skepticism about a fair, unbiased representation of your experience and your results. This forum has never really been used much in the past for comparisons and tests of this nature until EBVT reared its head here.
Most techs have done what Bill did with you at one time or another.

Throwing in little extras on top of a tuning has also been discussed here before. Its a nice way to build a relationship with a customer and have some issues addressed that a customer would not feel inclined to pay much for. It also educates a customer when they find out that these things do make a difference and its not just a shallow attempt to generate more revenue.

My reference to Gresham's Law was not "invective", it was actually a compliment if you were to interpret it as "bad tunings drive out good ones" in a market where both exist at the same face value. If Bill were to become so busy with his special tuning that he could no longer service you easily, you would keep quiet about it and hoard it for yourself, rather than tell everyone about it and run the risk of losing him altogether or paying much more for the service (because of demand).

From a business perspective another saying also comes to mind, "Only a fool sells gold when everyone is lining up to buy silver". Its a long hard sell to convince average people that their spinet will sound like a much larger more expensive piano, let alone the claim that you are the only tech who can make it so. If this was the reality, spinets would be much more closer in price to larger pianos and piano manufacturers would be using this "special" expertise Bill claims to have to validate it. They don't, and spinets are still spinets.

Ryan, you're welcome...well deserved! Nick, great job on the tuning!

Emmery, what did you think of Ryan's contribution?

I will definitely be posting more when I have some time from my work. When Bill pays a visit in July, we plan to record and post more recordings, so stay tuned.

Ryan, you asked for more recordings.....here is one I don't think I posted before It was recorded in March, 2010.


From the movie "Sabrina" music by John Williams, p/b B. Pezzone on the LX, in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/z4asx6zm1j

Yes, that could certainly be done. But you can also ask any first year recording engineer for an opinion on GP:s recordings, and they will instinctively answer that they are unprocessed (except for the limitations of the mp3 format, but that goes for both versions of GP:s quiz.) They are as 'raw' as you get them. There is a difference in mics and preamps, but that is not considered processing.

And, by the way, how would mic placement and sample rates change the temperament? Or editing (which in sound engineer terms equals to cutting/splicing)... I don't get it.


Well, maybe you don't diss the recording, but a few posts above this post of yours GP assures you that the recordings are not - what did you call it - tweaked?

Instead of being suspicious and resorting to questioning GP's truthfulness, send GP's mp3s to any sound engineer that you might know. They will confirm that it is ok for you to listen to the sound clips without fear of being deceived...

Emmery--
I'm sorry I misunderstood your remark about Gresham's Law. I should have read you more carefully.

As to the rest, sometimes one can only say, "Whatever."

But, since I can't seem to say anything in less than 500 words:

I've worked a trade long enough to know that if you treat a customer right, and go the extra mile, a generous tip is sometimes involved--though I never expect a tip. I just do the best job I can and be as conscientious about things as I know how. It's nice to get treated that way, too, and it sucks to get gyped. I've got a plumber story I could tell, sometime, too.

So, I've been around the block a few times. I'm grateful for Piano World. I'm grateful it led me to Bill. I think it's interesting how life can lead you to a kindred spirit. I'm happy to belong to the Piano World community and to be able to provide an honest testimonial, which I have done because I found a product I can believe in. It looks like others here have, too. Don't the recordings speak for themselves?

Perhaps, Emmery, as GP suggested, you could provide some recordings of your tunings for us to scrutinize, as GP, Patrick, Nick, Glen, and Bill have of their tunings, and as I have done of Bill's tuning on my piano? I'm actually happy to post recordings in Pianist Corner, both to be sociable (entertaining) and to learn how I can improve.

And now, a non-sequitur: I think it might be fun to go to a PTG convention and get into a bar fight in the piano lounge.

Sorry, I can't seem to get off of this. I am really passionate about it!

I'm the one who believed in my spinet, not Bill. Bill never claimed anything about it. He simply looked at a piano that needed work, AND DID THE WORK!

I'm the one who is thrilled with the work, because I love my little spinet and can cooperate with it to make music that's not too shabby.

BTW, I was quite happy with the tuner I had before Bill until he looked down his nose at me. He gave it a really fine tuning at first. I discovered EBVT III and prefer it.

Also, as Bill has said elsewhere, he is *not* the only one tuning in EBVT III in the Madison area. I think I will continue to shout it from the rooftops until supply has to meet demand!

--Andy

Pppat, if you have ever gone to a live magic show and then seen the same thing on video, the first thing you will notice is that you instinctively think theres camera work involved in the trickery...thats one of the reason most magicians with a fine act will not work any other way than live. In the end, with a posted recording on the net, all you have is the word of the poster as to the methods, source, and any other details of the recording. Its not a convincing method of displaying something to all those people out there like myself that know how much BS there is floating around.

My ego is in fine enough order that I don't need to advertise my accomplishments on a forum and my temperaments and tunings work well enough to earn me money...some of us techs just plug along doing what we do because we enjoy it, it brings bread to the table, and its respectable work.

When I look at the extremely subtle changes involved in the difference between Bill's three EBVT's (only one note is raised or lowered a slight amount on two of them according to his website) I start thinking that these temperaments are suited for certain keys more than others, or else, why make changes? If you played a piece of music that had neither an E or F# in it, nobody in the world could tell the difference between any of them for that matter. I'm sorry, but to me that is akin to giving a new title to a novel that simply had the font changed on a few selected letters of the alphabet.

The reason that ET as we tune it now (not RW) is so popular and has been for some time is that you can play in any key with a similar effect as the others. You can practice arpeggios or chord progressions up and down the keys chromatically without hitting the odd one and wondering what the he** is going on, or worse yet, trying to re-teach yourself that this is normal and acceptable. Now this may not be entirely what EBVT's are about since Bill claims all keys can be played, but at the same time he states that the keys each have their own distinct colour, or mood or whatever. What if a musician doesn't want these differences because it is after all a matter of personal taste? What if they want to hear something thats familiar to them (ET)? What if they want a piece to sound the same way the composer intended it to?

I will never be convinced by Bill or anyone else that you cannot convey feeling, mood or colour well enough with ET; the composition itself plays a greater role in that than the temperament in my opinion. Happy/Major, Sad/Minor, soft and soothing, loud and exciting, bouncy, lively, relaxing, mysterious, and hundreds of other descriptions are used in music that will hardly be noticed as changed if you raise or lower a note in a temperament a couple tenths of a cent. The meat and potatoes of what the composer intended remains intact as long as you physically execute it properly.

As for the other historic temperaments, I have heard some lovely enjoyable renditions of pieces deliberately intended for them, but I would never tune my piano that way. 5 minutes later I will want to play in a key where I don't want to hear a wolf and thats just not practical.

There is also an issue of marketability with temperaments other than ET. Most tuners know that ET is the hardest temperament to tune properly yet continue to do so. Customers in the know about this might assume I tune in non-ET because I found a way to cut corners on time or effort. What do you say to a customer who asks why you charge the same as your competitor for a temperament that takes less work?

Umm, have I missed something? Have the answers been posted?

GP,
i am still complementary about the tunings you have provided, considering the fact that you are not a professional tuner. What you have produced is by far not of a bad quality and i am sure you are highly motivated to make further progresses. You probably treat your students accordingly, giving them compliments if they perform a piece on a higher level than you expect from them as their status as a student may promise, so did i for your tuning. This does not exclude that there is still headroom for further improvement. What you are doing is very good, but as you probably know from your own experience in your field, the last meters are the hardest to climb for to become a master of art. (In my opinion true for performing as for tuning).

As i mentioned earlier, for an objective comparison of temperament differences, i find it essential to be able to compare the results without ANY concerns about the quality of the tunings. As you promised, that will happen soon.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper

Bernard,

Perhaps I misunderstood your comments, thanks for your clarification.

I am the first to say my tunings are not perfect. In fact I have always prefaced my postings with that knowledge. Even with my less-than-perfect unisons, and that pesky 5th-6th octave issue, I don't think my tunings are bad enough to not be able to hear and compare the qualities and differences between EBVT III and other temperaments.

Soon, we will have a "broadcast" quality comparison between EBVT III and ET which should allay any concerns.

I also look forward to Bill's visit in July to further improve my piano in EBVT III, and will definitely be posting some recordings from his visit.

In the meantime, here are some 1920's toe-tapping popular music selections in EBVT III. It seems that EBVT III works very well with this type of music.

1. "Dardanella" from 1919, played on the LX by Bob Ralston, in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/86vku4rurx

2. "The Continental" First song to win an Acadamy Award in 1934, played on the Ampico in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/i3ld0yd68o

To all who have asked for the KEY to the temperament test...it's coming soon!