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I can't feel your block/pin/string connection from here. Bill should be able to come up with some suggestions...

Try this for now - (single string test)
After you drop the pitch a bit, do a quicker pull to get above the pitch. That has a better chance of moving the "root" of the tuning pin. Any small movement now will be torquing the pin a little. The goal is to place it where the pitch wants to stay high. Go ahead and bring it down just a little and see if some pounding makes it shift any more. Sometimes the pitch will even creep up!

Play with the difference between feeling the pin move and feeling the pin torque. Then you will have a better chance leaving the pin/string in a stable position.

make any sense?

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Ron, I did away with the extended tip what I got the Joe Goss tuning hammer.

I wrote essentially this on another thread: I think the reason that section of the piano goes flat so quickly is the high pin torque and that GP will naturally put a lot of twist in the pin. If the entire section is flat, even by just a few cents and all GP does is pull and twist the pin until each string is just barely up to the pitch his ETD indicates, it is no wonder to me that the whole thing quickly reverts to nearly where it was to begin with.

I need to teach him how to do a relatively quick and stress free pitch correction. I believe that he will then find fine tuning of that section far easier to accomplish and it should hold much longer.

I forgot to mention that the 5th and 6th octaves are a little more sensitive than the rest of the piano. The "it keeps on going remark" tells me a lot. I know very well what you mean by that. Essentially, the piano is winning the "tug of war". You need to learn how to send people over to that side and kick them in the butt so you can win at this game. It's really fairly simple and all a matter of technique, knowing how the piano will respond. You know what the piano wants to do, so you take counter measures to defeat it.

Here's a nice summery of good tuning technique.

http://www.blackstonepiano.com/tutorial/tuningtechniques.htm

GP, If you "flag pole" the tuning pin the tuning will definitely be unstable. The pin has to turn even ever so slightly. I like to have a little play in the hammer so I can tap to pin.

Ron, you have many great videos. Do you have any showing good hammer technique?

Took a huuuuuge break from the videos.... Hoping to get going again soon!

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Ralph, thanks for the tip. Yes, I am aware of the 'flagpoling' issue...that's why I wanted the pins to a bit lower, as they were somewhat high, and easily prone for me to flagpole them a bit. My tuning hammer is the Fujan with only a 5 degree head...that was suggested as a way for a novice tuner to do less flagpoling. Here is a picture before we pounded them down.



That makes sense Bill.

After watching Bill this last time and his explaining that a sharp nudge/tap on the hammer is better than a slow pull, as it helps equalize the whole length of the string, I did not have enough time to try it out. I am sure we will get into all that when he returns.

Ralph, you hit the nail on the head. That will only lead to the "they keep on going" syndrome. I have been tuning pianos for so many years and have made all of my significant income for over 30 years by tuning pianos that I have naturally learned to become very efficient. I hardly have to think about the movements I make to stabilize a tuning pin and the string. The movements are instinctive to me, so they take very little time. I would say that most technicians on here would not even be aware of the actions I take to set a pin because they happen so quickly.

While I can appreciate the idea of taking a slow and very careful approach to tuning, time is money. It is certainly not about hacking out 4 or more tunings a day, wham, bam, thank you, ma'am and running a piano tuning racket. Pianos do require other services. There is travel time. There are time constraints on the part of the client, whether it be in a home, a school, church, restaurant, hotel, performance stage, etc. Those who can consistently get the job done and get it done well survive in a market with heavy competition.

I took a good long time to tune GP's piano that day but I would be the first to say that it can probably be improved. I wouldn't change it much, no, but I think I may be able to stretch the high treble a bit more and get that glorious pipe organ effect that seemed to be a bit disappointing in this case. I would also focus more on getting truly equal beating intervals where they are called for.

While I had the entire day, I did have to wait for long periods for other technical work to be finalized. A lot of time was wasted tracking down an annoying "buzz" when by instinct, I knew where it must be coming from. Only when I finally looked for what I was sure it must have been but was twice told, "No, it couldn't be that", did I resolve the issue quickly.

That is why I brought up the possibility of pinblock "rocking" because of potential gaps in the fitting. It does happen and therefore it came to mind. It is not something I could do anything about, so I accept the answer that "it couldn't be that" in this case.

There are many extremes in the life of a piano technician. I won't try to list them all here but how long it takes to tune a piano very well is a good example. Many times, I simply must get the job done as quickly as I possibly can for whatever reason. I do it and it happens. However, I would also say that when I have had all the time in the world to get a piano tuning to a state of complete, flawless perfection, that has never happened once, not even in 8 hours of concentrated work, not in over 40 years of wishing that I could. There is always some kind of cut off point. The closer one is to that ultimate state of perfection, the more elusive it becomes.

Speed and accuracy are not to be thought of as something negative. If any one of us were to watch a skilled factory stringer, for example, one who can lay on the strings and cut the string accurately enough for a perfect 3 coil job would be amazed at how quickly each string is so expertly installed in a matter of seconds. Neither that person nor the factory could afford the 10-15 minutes it take me to install a string and really get it right!



They say he is but there have been "sightings" in Wisconsin. The recent meteorite crash near here was said to have finally taken him out!

Those of you who have speculated on who GP is are not even warm. You'll never guess in a hundred years. The most I'll say is what he has already said, that he is a classically trained musician and performs as such. I do wish you all could experience his amazing technique. He is a man of talent and has done remarkably well so far in tuning his piano. Any of the professional technicians on here would find tuning his piano and putting the tuning up for display on here to be quite a challenge.

Ralph, I don't know who you are but I just read the "bible" when I went to your link! GP, out of all of the drivel that may be written on here, the link that Ralph posted may be of more help to you than anything I have seen yet. Study his material carefully!

Ralph, I don't know if you are a PTG member or not but your writing is so excellent that with a little editing, it would make an excellent PTG Journal article! Articles by non-members are sometimes published.

I truly thank you for a most excellent contribution! If you like the idea of publishing your ideas in the PTG Journal, I would be more than happy to help you edit them into a final format. I believe every technician should be aware of what you have written. It is all very practical and true to my own experience.

As a Steinway involved/trained technician, I also thank you for not taking the "bashing" route on this thread. You have offered practical and useful advice on how to attain desired results. That is immensely appreciated! There are certain Steinway tuners who are occasionally called upon to perform the "Rembrant" (colorful) tuning. What they actually do has always remained unexplained. With that in mind, I would like to know of your true impression of the recordings GP has submitted. Do you find an enhancement or does the inequality of temperament rub you the wrong way? I promise no flames as to your response.

Thanks Bill. Ralph, I will definitely read through your tuning instructions, and thank you very much for posting the link to them.

It's very much appreciated to see this kind of help, as opposed to some of the negative posts I have seen here that offered nothing but criticism etc!

Ralph: Your website link in the above posting has great information. I really enjoyed reading it and can't wait to use what I have learned.

[quote=Bill Bremmer
Those of you who have speculated on who GP is are not even warm. You'll never guess in a hundred years. The most I'll say is what he has already said, that he is a classically trained musician and performs as such. I do wish you all could experience his amazing technique. He is a man of talent and has done remarkably well so far in tuning his piano. Any of the professional technicians on here would find tuning his piano and putting the tuning up for display on here to be quite a challenge. [/quote]


A hundred years! Good grief. He must not be that famous then.

Could he be.......Chris Botti trumpeter and composer?

I would never tell, even if you guessed right.

Thank you Bill. You give me far too much credit.

The website I found that had the tuning information is the following:

http://www.blackstonepiano.com/

It's really a great site with a lot of information.

As far as me publishing an article, I'm not sure anyone wants to hear anything I have to say about anything but I'm about to say it for the first time right here. Buckele your seatbelts.

One topic that does interest me is how molecules, specifically protons, spin in nature. I know, now I sound like a real wacko, but protons do spin. In fact all molecules spin or more specifically, undergo precision. They spin a wobble like a top. The interesting part is that they spin at a very specific rate and direction when put in a magnetic field. They orient themselves north and south in that magnet and spin at a very specific rate depending on what other molecules are around them. That's the fundamental reason we can see things like herniated discs with MRI. Now what does that have to do with tuning and temperaments? My theory, and as far as I know it is just mine, is that our atoms respond when exposed to certain frequencies. Just like in an MRI machine, energy is absorbed when the correct frequncies are experienced. Everybody has experienced the feeling of music washing over them when something happens that's just right at a concert. I actually think we feel music as much as we hear music. When the piano is tuned correctly and the frquencies somehow line up a certain way, we can feel it, not just hear it. I believe something happens at the molecular level for that experience to take place. In fact the whole universe can be expressed as a domain of frequncies as defined by Fourier transform.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform

How's that sound for the subject of an article? Pretty wild stuff huh?

As far as EBVT III goes, I find it facinating. It does exactly what music and art are meant to do, create tension, then resolve it. At times EBVT makes me feel very uneasy and uncomfortable because I'm not sure where it's headed, but then somehow it finds a home and resolves. It creates far more tension then ET. If a person likes it or not is purely a matter of taste, and I won't debate taste very often. Those that have expressed negative reactions to EBVT III I think are very sensitive to that tension similar to how many people felt during the premiere of Rite of Spring when fights broke out in the audience. I just saw that with the Philadelphia Orchestra and it is at times a very uncomfortable piece. I also think we have inherited memory from the cosmos in our DNA and because of that, certain combination of frequencies rub us either the wrong or the right way. I just haven't quite figured out why that is or what those secret memories from the beginning of time are just yet. I have a feeling the beginning of the universe was a very traumatic event.

Sorry you asked yet?

That must mean I've nailed it. I've never seen you post such few words!

I'm just having a little fun, Bill. I'll stop playing detective and get out of your hair and respect Chris's....I mean! GP's desire for anonymity.

Believe me GP, after all or the excrement that we both have had to deal with, the humble posting by Ralph is the one worth absorbing every word of. He really knows what he is talking about!

You're being very nice Bill. Thank you, but it looks like my post scared everybody off. I do have that affect every once in a while.

This is very comforting to hear, Bill. Lately my tuning average time has been increasing. I'm getting stuck in the variety of choices. I have to start commanding myself to let it go, and to start listening again...

The headline would be "EBVT III Pipe Organ Effect Spotted in Kabalevsky."

Indeed, I got out some Kabalevsky to practice last night--some stuff I hadn't worked on since Bill tuned my piano to EBVT III. Lo and behold! I was merrily playing a prelude, when what to my wondering ears should appear, but the pipe organ effect, perfectly clear!

It's at the end of this little one minute piece of music, played a little frantically but I hope you can forgive that--It was an exciting discovery! (All the standard disclaimers apply: Lester spinet, creaky bench, blah, blah, blah...)

Kabalevsky "Prelude" Op. 5, No. 2

Thanks for that example, Andy! I really liked it. Your little piano is holding up fairly well. I'm also glad you found a piece where the pipe organ effect is heard in a true musical context, the way the music was written.

Well, Ralph, the article on FT is way, way over my head but the fact that temperament can and does have an emotional effect on people is not. I'm not at all sure whether it can be explained in terms of how a temperament can make people's protons spin a certain way but clearly, the effects of temperament and other ways a piano may be tuned can be either pleasing or displeasing.

I did find the Blackstone piano website interesting. In particular, this quote:

Bach Prelude

Why not provide a musical example of what my tuning sounds like, before you delve into my tuning method? I’ve included a recording of J.S. Bach’s Prelude #1 from The Well-Tempered Clavier recorded after I finished tuning the piano for this tutorial. I don’t claim to be much of a pianist; I only recorded this so people could hear an example of my tuning, not to be critiqued on my playing ability (so go easy on me). Mr. Bach wrote the most elaborate and beautiful tuning test ever created. It is a brutally honest reflection of the accuracy and consistency of the tuning, as well as a check on the evenness of the piano’s action regulation and voicing.

Listen to J.S.Bach’s Prelude #1

http://www.blackstonepiano.com/tutorial/mp3files/bach.mp3

We have heard many examples of this same music from examples in Reverse Well both in error and deliberately, in ET with and without the pedal and also in the EBVT III. It is interesting that some piano technicians only like it in ET while it is clear that Bach would have never heard it or played it that way. It is also interesting that Mr. Blackstone (I assume that is his name) considers the piece to be a test and confirmation of a correctly executed ET. When you hear no change of mood during the modulations, it is right, according to him but Bach clearly wrote the music to have those moods represented.

Many people argue that more modern music, usually anything 19th Century or later and certainly any music 20th Century forward was written with no effects from temperament in mind. To put effects in the music alters it. Doesn't removing effects from earlier music likewise alter it from what was intended? We have already heard some comments about the effects the EBVT III has on music both pro and con and more should be forthcoming soon (according to my private mail).