Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Agraffe Height Affect Sound?

While tuning, one of the agraffe in the middle registers broke off my Steinway grand last month. I insisted my technician that I want authentic parts regardless of price. I guess dealing with Steinway parts are always a hassle, and they wouldn't sell him single agraffes. They only sell by the dozen, as if agraffes are a common wear item?!

I was at work when he installed a new agraffe from Piano Supply, and they insisted that it was good match for the Steinway agraffe. After I came home, I saw that the agraffe was not identical to the others because the holes are higher on the new agraffe, and furthermore, he had to place a washer to line up the horizontal dimension of the agraffe while tightening so that all 3 strings would have the same singing length. Unfortunately, the string now sits 2mm above the plane of the other strings.

Questions:
1. Is there any affect on sound, tone, timbre if the string sits 2mm above the other strings?...
2. After the new agraffe and new Schaff strings, the note has a flat timbre, no luster compared to the other notes in the same register. I retuned it, and still the same. Could this be from the raised string height?...
3. Should I have him replace the agraffe to achieve better position with the other strings?

I could really use your advice!

Two mm is more than I would be comfortable with.
The tone issue could be related to the additional letoff caused by the change in string height and possibly the hammer/string strike point has shifted slightly.
Pluck the strings to see if similar tone differences exist as when playing.
I suppose it is possible that the additional string height could have created a damper clearance issue.

Steinway Parts dept is certainly no hassle.

Considering that your piano is a Steinway and the value of having things right.

Purchasing the dozen agraffs for the one you need is a minor inconvenience bordering on no inconvenience at all.

Put the remaining eleven on a shelve and consider it a good investment.

I recommend removing the Mutt Agraffe and replacing it with the proper one.

Thank you Gene and Larry for the sage advice! My 1985 Steinway B has a gorgeous sound, as it used to belong to a Steinway technician from Philly, who had cherry picked it from the NY factory, before it even hit the showroom!

I am a firm believer of this motto: There is nothing more expensive than to have something done cheaply. I gave my tuner the broken agraffe so that he can match it to Steinway specifications. I waited 3 weeks and all I got was a after market agraffe. Now I am also wondering, I hope he didn't screw up the threads too?...

He also replaced one of my bass strings last year with a Mapes. The 25 year old neighboring strings sound much better in terms of tone and timbre than the new string. I am beginning to question his judgement after 30 years of service to our family...

I definitely want replace the agraffe and strings to the correct specifications, height, etc. What a hassle now!

Keep in mind that Steinway probably gets their agraffes from the same supplier that the supply house your tech got them from. Parts vary from time to time. Replacing an agraffe is an emergency repair, where getting it done quickly is usually more important than getting it 100% accurately.

If the agraffe sits too high, it can be ground down. Modern agraffes are made so that is not difficult to do.

Thanks, BDP. That's what my tuner said, basically that there is considerable variability and that a new Steinway agraffe might not be the same as their 25 year old design. I told my tuner that I don't mind waiting a month as long it's done with the correct parts. I don't like the use of washers either - this all seems rather make shift for such a fine instrument. I wonder how an agraffe could be ground down from the base without causing damage to the fine threads?

Changing the string height by 2mm does change a lot. All aspects of regulating that note are out of whack and as was mentioned the strike point is a bit of an issue now - not so much in that it is in a different spot (which it might be) but I think of it along the lines of the fore and aft pitch of the hammerhead. No longer is the hammer striking the string in the position it was shaped for. This can affect its tone for sure.

The use of washers is acceptable and shouldn't bother you. It would be a greater concern if an agraffe was replaced and didn't fit just right and the tech never attempted to make use of available washers in the fitting of the new agraffe.
On the other hand, what was the big deal of ordering a dozen and like someone else suggested, save the rest for other jobs?

As for Steinway parts, some items are indeed best to come from the original manufacturer, identical agraffes and Steinway flanges for one. Other than that, there are a lot of options available and you shouldn't limit yourself to using Steinway only, unless you are seeking nothing more than to keep its original parts.
Think along these terms..... Just because you buy a new Lexus and it comes with 'x brand' tires, doesn't mean when its time to replace those tires, you shouldn't go with a different tire that today is rated comparable or better in wear, handling and performance. Just because it's a Lexus, when you change what 'connects' you to the road, don't you want what will give you the best ride in the end?

These are my thoughts and go for any brand of piano, or any other maintainable product.

I would order the Steinway agraffe on the probability that it would more likely be a good match. I've ordered a dozen from the factory for this very same reason, and it isn't expensive enough to get upset about. Look at it from Steinway's point of view: shipping one agraffe wouldn't even be worth the hassle of wrapping it and paying the postage. And now I have extras on hand should this issue pop up again...

2mm height difference will definitely affect tone and regulation.

I'd have tried to keep the original strings if possible, particularly in the bass. Putting on new strings, while not a bad choice, is hit and miss tonally. Putting in an agraffe that's a closer match will give the new string more of a fighting chance.

But washers are correct parts. The issue is that the thread is such that it may not seat at the exact point where it is facing the correct direction. If it is still too high, the correct installation procedure is to use a machinists end-mill to take down the base of the agraffe (that mates with the plate) so that it is at both the correct height and orientation. If it is too low, it is proper procedure to use washers made of shim stock to bring the agraffe to the correct height and also correct orientation. In your case, if the agraffe is too high, use of the shim washer was inappropriate, not because that isn't done at the S&S factory (it is) but because the agraffe was too high.

This is an example of how labor-intensive piano work is. It would be ridiculous to expect that all the screws in a car or in a piece of furniture would all have their slots in exactly the same orientation -- and yet that is what is required here. It is not something that "just happens". Very little in piano assembly just goes together automatically -- even in the factories.

The fact that we don't see this kind of craftsmanship in the other items we own is partly what can lead us to think something has been done wrong when we see something like the shim washers that are found from time to time if many sets of installed agraffes are inspected.

So, the issue is not about "authentic parts" but proper installation. Practical problem is that an end mill isn't cheap -- which may be why your technician hasn't gotten one yet. You should expect to pay sufficiently so that he can allocate his cost to the installation job. As an alternative, perhaps a friendly local machinist can be found that has an end mill that he would lend/rent for the job. (It is used by hand, not in a tooling machine).

Good post Keith!

John, Dave, and Keith, I am absolutely in awe of the sage advice being offered here. Thank you all immensely!

I am going to order the agraffes from Steinway MYSELF and use the extras to select for the correct string height that faces in the right direction so that all 3 strings will have the same singing length. Keith, if it's still too high, then I know a few machinists who may be able to help with the end-mill application.

I've saved your respective websites for the future... Your help has been well beyond my expectations of my initial posting. I will find a way to repay you guys somehow!

Thanks Again,
George

Agreed, a good post.

Snip:
He also replaced one of my bass strings last year with a Mapes. The 25 year old neighboring strings sound much better in terms of tone and timbre than the new string. I am beginning to question his judgement after 30 years of service to our family...
--------
Comment:
By the same token, there's nothing wrong here with using a string from Mapes (with a tip of the hat to the above two posters, both of whom are associated with fine bass strings). That's what you'll find on a Steinway. If there was a problem, it COULD have been in the execution (replace both strings of a bichord, twist/not twist the string, hammer/string interface, etc.) but it could also be that your old strings are old and have lost some of their original vitality, or maybe it's just hard to make an exact tonal match to old bass strings, they are different from the steel wire strings.

It isn't that hard to make a jig for milling down the agraffe to be the appropriate height.

You need:

A piece of wood with sandpaper (I think I used a medium grit for this) glued to it
a hole the same diameter as the threads to pass the threads through

You can spin it by hand to mill it down to the right size. If you have to take lots of material off, you can use an agraffe tool and an electric drill to spin it a little faster(I think BDB gave me that tip a while back).

Nice tip...I like. It's one thing to improvise in the shop, but to figure out how to do it at the job site is a whole other level.