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There are many factors that go into the performance of bass strings. Their source is only part of the equation.

You say the Mapes experiment has been a failure. Do you know why? Are the strings defective in some way? Who scaled the strings—were they duplicates of the original? Or were they rescaled in some way? Let’s keep in mind that Mapes bass strings satisfied the Steinway factory for many decades.

(Mapes International Gold refers to their steel music wire, by the way. It has nothing to do with their bass strings.)

As well, the sound of any piano is more than the quality and physical characteristics of the strings—whether they be wrapped strings or plain steel strings. Hammers and hammer voicing also play a significant roll. As does the condition and character of the soundboard. And room acoustics. And on and on.

Do you trust the technical qualifications of your technician? If so, have this discussion with him/her. The competent and experienced technician standing with you at the piano can probably better advise you than can all of us.

ddf

Yes! I love the sound of your piano! Great recording quality too. Man, I love that bass sound and the hammers are voiced exactly how I like them. There's a crispness to the attack but a depth and warmth to the sound. I know this has to do with the piano and the player as well. All I can say is that is, IMO, one fantastic sounding Mason.

A bass string is a complex device. Musical tone is made up of numerous frequencies produced by nodal segments in a bass string. The bass string’s vibration needs to extend to each nodal segment to reach the ear as a full, rich, musical tone. To best achieve this both core wire and wrap wire need to have as much ‘memory’, spring, as possible. The ‘memory’, spring, even if relatively small, of the wrap wire provides a significant flywheel effect increasing the bass string’s efficiency and its life span. The next factor of importance is the core/wrap ratios. That is another story.
Manual winding techniques require long experience to master. Manual dexterity winding approx. 30 wrap wire diameters, in my case from .006” through .085” is not achieved overnight. Most bass string makers are switching to automatic winders which, to date, have been designed and built to handle only soft drawn wrap wires. Soft drawn wrap wires, in addition to their incapacity of enhancing the string’s vibrating efficiency, are unevenly compressed, flattened when, during winding, hitting the much harder, rapidly pulsating, rotating core wire around which they’re being wound. Many tonal peculiarities result.

Ari Isaac
A. Isaac Pianos
Cadenza S hammers
Profundo and Profundo S bass strings
www.isaacpiano.com

AJF, thanks. That is why I post recordings, they really speak volumes. What's interesting is that these hammers have not been voiced yet, and it's been about 1 year since they were installed. Here on PW, a pro piano tech wrote that it's a sign of a good hammer when it needs little or no voicing when they are new. This is certainly the case here, and it continues to be the case a year later.

As far as the bass strings are concerned, I posted about this before back in 2005/06.....I had a brand new set of Arledge bass strings installed on my piano back then when it was being rebuilt. These bass strings came highly recommended. Unfortunately, the sound was thin, and devoid of any rich bass harmonics, and that glorious M&H bass sound one would expect from a BB. I don't know why they were like that. We then ordered a set of the Isaac bass strings, and the transformation in sound was dramatic. A full, rich, bass sound was now coming from the BB, as opposed to a thin, anemic sound. I was very impressed.

I understand that there are many factors that go into the sound of a piano, but in my case, by just changing the bass strings, there was a huge improvement.

It's interesting.....having talked with many piano techs over the last 7+ years, during and after the rebuild of my piano, I have observed that a majority seem to favor using certain hammer brands, strings, and bass strings, for various reasons, some of them technical.

I am coming at this from a professional classical musician's point of view, not a professional piano technician. The recordings I posted here and have posted in the past on PW, speak louder than words and opinions.

I have no vested interest here in saying that the Isaac bass strings, and hammers for that matter, are fantastic. If they were not good, I would certainly post to that effect. My enthusiasm stems from the excellent results I am hearing on my piano.

88man, you will have all kinds of advice, as evidenced here. I would suggest you give the Isaac strings a try, as they would certainly contribute to a better overall sound...make it a "Isaac Profundo Bass String" experiment.

88man, there are some beautiful bass sounds here as well as other beautiful sounds on this classical piano roll from the 1920's that I recorded a few months ago. A very beautiful and unusual piece not heard that much anymore. I should also add that the tuning is in EBVT III.

"Music of the Spheres" from "Winterreigen" composed by Ernst von Dohnanyi in 1905, played by E.v.Dohnanyi on the Ampico roll system. http://www.box.net/shared/b5fvvv7tbn

Just like grandpianoman, I too use Isaac Profundo Bass strings. Apparently Ari has two types, I used the 'upgraded type' (slight more costly but amounts to nothing in the long run) upon his suggestion as my piano is on the long side (more than 8 feet). It has been about 6 months now and strings are already quite settled. Not only the sound is deep and rich but also clear and definite in pitch. One should have in mind that a good clear and rich bass serves to enhance the rest of the piano when played in providing a beautifully balanced performance.

Ari
From string maker to string maker, perhaps you should come up to my shop sometime and have a feel for our automated winding machine. It is by far superior to any manual method, both in the consistency of winding the string itself and the drastically reduced vibrations during the winding process.

As you likely know, my father operated much in the same manner as yourself, and this actually led him to our German automated winding machine.

It would also be very interesting to use my machine with your harder copper and see the results. I don't see why it couldn't handle the harder copper.

Handling a manual string winding machine is the same as acquiring the skill of notching a bridge. To some it would seem daunting and they could never master it, and for others it would be second nature. I was winding strings by my mid to late teens on the manual machine and achieving consistent success to the .001" of an inch.

If that were true, why then did I see one guy at the Grotrian factory in Braunschweig who wound all bass strings manually. He had apparently been there for over 20 years. The factory didn't strike me as nostalgic but state of the art. Yet Grotrian uses only manually wound bass strings. Methinks there must be a reason.

Perhaps because a machine such as we have costs well over $100k.

Newgeneration,
Just curious if you have tested the harder copper and see how it turned out.

No, we haven't. We've had great success with our production over the last 15 years using the high quality German Degen copper.
I am intrigued to try the harder copper (mainly to test its use on my machine).

I think you’ll be seeing more and more factories switching to automatic, or at least semi-automatic, winding machines in the future. There are enough of them around by now that they have more than proven their worth.

While it is certainly possible for an experienced worker to wrap good strings using hand operated machines it takes a lot of skill and practice.

I have to agree with John, automatic winding machines produce more predictable and more consistent results—as long as they are properly maintained they simply do not have the off days that just happen to even the best of the hand-winders.

ddf

Hi!

Mr. Isaac is right ... hand made strings sound richer than full automatic strings.
We make all strings by hand and there is no need to change this.

But may be it is the same discussion as for tuning by ears or by pocket tuner.
The best tuners tune only by ears ;-)


@John



Hi John ... by the way ... I´m a master piano technician ... 2 1/2 years piano technician apprenticeship + 1 year full time master school at Ludwigsburg-Germany ...really tough but was a great time there looking back a few years after.

See you in Las Vegas
Gregor

Gregor,
good of you to set things straight for the record.
I wasn't sure if you were actively into the rebuilding and/or tuning etc.
I remember when I visited you last fall that you were involved in rebuilding in the past, but not anymore, so I wasn't sure.

I'm so looking forward to Vegas. I have planned that my wife and I will remain for a couple extra days to do some sights - Hoover Dam, maybe the Grand Canyon, etc.

Care to join? Have you been before?
Anyone else - let's make a big trip of it!



;), Gregor, the best tuners are usually the ones who have learned and are accomplished by ear first!! but have been able to adopt new technologies which aid to make their tuning more efficient and eliminate the elements of fatigue.
Perhaps it is the same with string winders, at least I think so. You should first be an expert winder by hand. Only this way can you use a 'hands-free' winding machine to yet improve further. This is fact, not opinion.

For the sake of having an accurate discussion, lets make sure we're all on the same page:
For me:

Manuel winding maching
- copper is being fed and led by hand onto the spinning core wire which is fastened to a winding lathe. The 'draw' on the copper (holding it back some) is done by hand and it is unwinding from its spool which is mounted on some sort of rotating apparatus (lazy susan).

Automatic machine which I use
- the string is mounted on the lathe. The tension of the string is entirely adjustable/controllable. The copper spool is mounted to a moving 'sled' and on its path towards the string travels around the circumference of a channeled disc. This disc is numerically controlled to inflict whatever desired 'draw' on the copper is wanted (or chosen by the experienced winder). This can be altered up to 0.0005" of an inch in the strings final overall diameter. This allows for an entirely consistent, uniform string which is simply IMPOSSIBLE to achieve by hand. The sled glides down the length of the string in perfect form, wrapping the copper as it goes.
The winding speed is entirely variable/controllable. The copper is automatically 'finished' at the start and end of the winding process (no need to aggravate or tear the copper to finish or vibrate the heck out of the string to 'cone' the ends of the copper).
The transverse vibrations of the string are night and day diminished from that of a manuel winding machine by way of other aspects of the machine.

I suppose my machine should really be called a 'Hands-free, NC machine' (numerically controlled).
Perhaps what others are calling automated is closer to a CNC type winding machine which I have no experience with. I could see a CNC type winding machine eliminate any winding experience by its operator which could result in less than quality string being produced.

Are we all on the same page with these terms at least?
Manuel winding machine
Hands free NC machine
Automated (CNC) machine

Yes, as far as I know. The machines I am most familiar with have been what you describe as NC machines.

ddf

Thank you everyone for all your great contribution to the topic of bass strings!

It would seem to me, hand winding is extremely technique sensitive and depends on the skill and consistency of the artisan. I am sure that like artisans, not all machines are equal as well. I am a newcomer to the discussion of bass strings.

3 months ago, I entertained the thought of selling my B, and buying a D for the sake of the last 6 bass notes the D could offer in spades. After a visit to Steinway Hall, I still haven't seen a D that matches my B in terms of tonal quality. My B was previously owned by a Steinway technician himself, cherry picked from NYC. The bass is solid, robust, with just a few notes that are going slightly flat as I have mentioned. The mids have that double reed sweetness, and the highs have that bell like quality with good sustain. The action is very expressive and responsive with numerous dynamic shadings.

It's just recently that I've been considering restringing the piano as a feasible option to selling it and buying a D. However, I can't even find a D that exceeds my current B at any price!

Your responses have me thinking with questions:

1. It seems harder to wind, but can I assume that harder copper might yield a more robust and rich sound?...

2. What proportion or percentage of the desired qualities in the sound is being conveyed by the strings? And how much of the desired qualities in the sound is conveyed by the supporting structures (sound board, pins, skin, frame, etc.)?

3. Do certain bass string makers sound better on certain makes of pianos? What is typical with Steinways, besides Mapes?

4. Art vs Science - Here is the $5,000 question that transcends the science in winding strings: If the string maker understands that I am looking for a "rich tone, bronze timbre, harmonically rich, gutsy/killer sound," can he translate these "sonic adjectives" to the proper scaling, materials, and technique required to achieve these goals?...

Thanks Everyone!

I won't say yes or no, because I haven't dealt much with harder copper.

What I can speak for which pertains to your robust and rich sound inquiry is the opportunity in producing a new set of strings, certain items can be addressed.
For example, single wrapping the lower strings versus double wrapping (this perhaps not for a Steinway B or D though). The size of the core diameter in relation to the overall diameter. The amount of draw taken out of the copper during the winding process. Addressing the original overall tension and rescaling within those parameters, but possibly redistributing the tension across the section of bass strings. Definitely the hitch loop style has come more and more to the forefront in string manufacturing as well. These are only naming a few.

These are all considerations of both the tech (representing the customer) and the string winder irregardless of what type of machinery is being used.



Great question. The vibrating 'patterns' within a giving string are complex. Each and every adjustment made in producing a string (items I mentioned in my answer to your first question) will change and create a new vibrating pattern.

These vibrations are transferred to what you refer to as the supporting structure. What percentage is being conveyed by the string you ask? Well as much as possible in a well planned out, well made string. You want an efficient energy transmission from the string to the bridge and soundboard. And then you want to have hoped that this 'supporting structure' was manufactured in such a way to transfer as much of the string energy into the air around the piano which we acknowledge as sound.



Others may differ in opinion from me here, but I would say that it is less that certain string makers strings would sound 'better' on certain makes of pianos BUT RATHER it is more that certain string makers strings could possibly be better suited for different eras of classical music or genres in general.
From our feedback, we believe that our strings have such a spectrum and versatility and are able to satisfy the end pianists whatever style they desire from their instrument.

Re: Steinway, I do not know when Mapes came in as their supplier or of their stringing habits prior to that point.



Yes....and no. There is so much more of the piano that contributes to creating the overall sound character of a piano that proceeding with just the bass strings is not, how did you put it, "[the] technique required to achieve these goals?..." It is definitely a huge piece of the puzzle, but everything from the structure to the hammerheads to proper regulation contribute significantly to the tonal outcome.

Take for example an old Knabe concert grand (oh, by the way I need to unload one of these ), checking underneath you find the rim is amazingly thicker than many newer concert grands. We have installed our strings (yes, the softer European copper) and aside from the quality and strong fundamental you would expect, the piano has that American sought growl in the low notes - clean yet bold - like a King elegantly rising from his throne yet a voice that exudes authority and awe.

-----
Well, sorry for the long reply but hope I did do your questions some justice.

Here is yet another example of what The Isaac Profundo Bass Strings have contributed to the overall tone and timbre of my grand piano.

This was recorded about the same time as "Music of the Spheres"

"Rhapsody" Op.11, No.2, composed and played by Ernst Von Dohnanyi, recorded in EBVT III on the Ampico Reproducing Roll System. http://www.box.net/shared/xnojy1dxnj

Many thanks, John for such an in depth response. Great recording too! I am very impressed at the caliber of understanding and knowledge you have all shared on this topic. I am going to archive all this great advice. I am also keeping the info on the string makers that have responded on this thread too. Thanks again!