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Yes. The melody isn't the same, but the harmonic progression is (though transposed down a third). I'm betting you've heard Schiff's lectures, yes? =p How many bonus point do I get?!! I haven't heard Schiff's lectures. But I tend to think in terms of harmonic progressions, and I noticed the similarity a while back. (Same progression as the Goldberg Variations, at least in the first four measures, and Billy Joel's Piano Man, for that matter.) When I was in junior high school and listening to top 40 music, the first thing I did when hearing a new song was analyze the harmonic progression. I was a little nuts: I considered two songs with the same progressions to be basically the same song, independent of melody or lyrics. (There weren't a lot of different songs.) -Jason Ah, well, they're well worth the time (the lectures that is). Very good ear with the Goldbergs/Joel. I hadn't ever noticed that before and hope to God I don't hear that song now when I hear the Aria haha.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
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I just found Schiff's lectures...wow, very informative! Will be very helpful with whichever sonata I choose to play.
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Personally, I find Op. 111 to be the greatest of them all (I want the Arietta engraved on my tombstone). I DO consider Op. 90 to be one of the "late" sonatas. It's certainly different than it's ensuing partners in crime. The second movement is such a thing of beauty. If you're not considering Op. 90 as part of your "late" group, then my vote is for Op. 109. It is, certainly, not easy (as none of them are), but arguably less difficult technically than it's brothers following it (which Beethoven was working on at the same time in addition to the Missa Solemnis). For bonus points, who can tell me from which sonata (of his own), and which movement, that Beethoven "lifted" the main theme of the Op. 109 exposition. I made this realization in my first year of college many years ago and thought I'd made some incredible discovery (and to me it was haha). NO CHEATING!!! (there IS one person here, at least, that I know of that DOES know the answer...if they were paying attention hahaha). Once again, NO CHEATING!!! See if you can figure it out on your own. Op. 111 is melting me this beauty and sadness can not described by words. Of course Op. 111 is the greatest of them all and i like movement 1 more than 2. But the hardest one in the late Beethoven sonatas.
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I just found Schiff's lectures...wow, very informative! Will be very helpful with whichever sonata I choose to play. I have them all, so, if there are any you've missed let me know. Last year he gave similar lectures (at Wigmore again) on Haydn. The Wigmore's site has podcasts of the lectures, which included the G major Capriccio, the C major Fantasia, and the late Eflat sonata Hob. XVI:52.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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I agree that Op. 109 and 110 are probably the best places to start, but I can see how 111 might also be appropriate. (There's a certain romantic quality about it that makes it more accessible, both musically and technically, than Op. 101 and 106.) I also agree that Op. 90 should be considered "late." While one could argue that it's not chronologically late, the finale certainly looks forward to Schubert and the choice of German as the language of choice makes a rather bold philosophical statement.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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The fugues in Op110 are not especially difficult.... As with many such things, it depends what we mean by difficult. I guess you're talking just about playing the notes. Keeping the voices straight (and in fact bringing them out at all) is very hard. Memory is a biiitch. (The fugues are mega-notorious for memory lapses, even among high-level people.) And playing it with any real understanding..... Anyway, I would agree that if we're just talking about getting the notes, Op. 110 is probably the least difficult of the late sonatas. As long as we're allowed to leave out the middle section of the 2nd movement. That page is as just about as hard (technically) as anything else in Beethoven.
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Pianogirl: I think the best sonata to start with is whichever one you feel most drawn to. People are answering mostly (actually totally) in terms of which they think is 'easiest.' But look........they're all hard, and arguably all at about the same level of difficulty -- provided we have a broad definition of what is a "level," and I don't see why we shouldn't. They're all very hard, and they all have extreme difficulties somewhere or other. So -- go with whichever one you are most drawn to. That's the answer.
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Beethoven sonata trivia question!: (It's kind of a ridiculous question, but it shows how my mind works. ) There are 4 Beethoven sonatas in the key of Eb major (#4,#13,#18,#26). There are also 4 sonatas in the key of G major. And there is no other key signature with exactly 4 Beethoven sonatas in that key. In this sense we'll say that "4" is represented by exactly two keys, Eb major and G major. There is one number that is represented by exactly one key. What number is it? (Note that I am not asking for a key signature with only one sonata written in that key, like F# major. I'm asking for a number x for which there's only one key with x sonatas.) -Jason
Last edited by beet31425; 05/07/10 12:45 AM.
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Well, I guess we'd have to go through all of them and do a tabulation. And I'm not gonna do it. Interesting question, though.
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There's four with G Major actually
op. 14 no. 2 op. 31 no. 1 op. 49 no. 2 op. 79
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There's four with G Major actually
op. 14 no. 2 op. 31 no. 1 op. 49 no. 2 op. 79 Thanks, pianogirl87. I've edited the original question accordingly. That's what I get for trying to check carefully.... -Jason ps: the answer isn't 4, because (as the question now correctly states) 4 is represented by Eb and G.
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Oh, now with the editing, the correct answer is 3, lol. And it's c minor... op. 10 no. 1 op. 13 op. 111 Yay! I'm such a nerd for knowing this, lol.
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Another fun trivia question:
How many of Beethoven's sonatas are thematically unified? (That is, which sonatas have thematic material that returns in other movements?)
I can think of 3. Are there more?
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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.....thematic material that returns in other movements..... How do we define that? Like, would you count Op. 110? The "theme" doesn't exactly return, but the "material" does. Like, look at the name of our member Beet31425. Those digits (supposedly by coincidence, he says) are the first 5 notes of the opening of the 1st mvt of 110. And that pattern returns all over the place.
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Oh, now with the editing, the correct answer is 3, lol. And it's c minor... op. 10 no. 1 op. 13 op. 111 Yay! I'm such a nerd for knowing this, lol. Nice job! The hardest part is unraveling the question. By the way, am I the only one on these forums who naturally thinks of the Beethoven sonata numbers, rather than the opus? I immediately know, say, what sonata #16 is, but I always have to take a minute to translate back and forth with the opus number. On the other hand, it sounds silly to my ears to speak of "Mozart's 10th sonata" or "Schubert's 12th sonata", so I'm not consistent. I just got to know the Beethoven by their numbers for some reason. -J
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By the way, am I the only one on these forums who naturally thinks of the Beethoven sonata numbers, rather than the opus?..... Probably. The only ones I know by "number" are (for some reason) 21 & 23. Oh......I guess I also know 31 and 32.
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Another fun trivia question:
How many of Beethoven's sonatas are thematically unified? (That is, which sonatas have thematic material that returns in other movements?)
I can think of 3. Are there more? Great question, but I agree with Mark: if we look at the germ or motif level, it's going to be ambiguous. Counting only completely non-ambiguous cases of actual quoting, I only get 2 (op.27#1 and op.101). I'm really looking forward to seeing Kreisler's other(s) and whatever else people come up with; I love this kind of thing. -J
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.....following on the ambiguity factor: I have this "Dictionary of Musical Themes" where you can look up a theme (alphabetically, so to speak) and see what it is. When I first got the book, just for fun I decided to look up the opening of the Moonlight Sonata. The way you look up anything is, you put it into the key of C. (Everything is listed as though it were in C -- that's in case someone knows a melody but doesn't know what key the piece is in.) So, you look up the opening of the Moonlight Sonata as this: G-C-Eb-C-C-Eb-G-C-Eb.... (etc.) And sure enough, it was in there. But I noticed that there was also one other listing for those same notes, which therefore was listed right under it -- just one other thing in the entire well-known classical literature. It's the last movement of that sonata. So.......... does that count?P.S. How many people realize that the notes of the opening of the last movement are exactly the same as the 1st movement? I didn't until I saw this thing.
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Another fun trivia question:
How many of Beethoven's sonatas are thematically unified? (That is, which sonatas have thematic material that returns in other movements?)
I can think of 3. Are there more? op. 102 #1
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My dad always likes to point out that there is something very pure about the Arietta; it is in C Major and there are very few accidentals throughout the entire movement. Wondering what people think of this. It definitely contributes to the tranquil feeling of the movement.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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