|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
69 members (Abdulrohmanoman, Charles Cohen, accordeur, BWV846, Animisha, benkeys, Anglagard44, 12 invisible),
2,309
guests, and
436
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419 |
I'm sure that you are aware that Horowitz had an extremely unorthodox approach to the piano. He frequently played with low wrists, flat fingers, and a curled pinky. He played runs with a type of stratching motion, striking the key with an outstretched finger and then quickly pulling it back.
Many pianists who tried to follow Horowitz' technique had injuries. Does anyone have any theories as to how Horowitz was able to become the greatest virtuoso using a system of technique that would injure most people?
Last edited by LaReginadellaNotte; 05/06/10 11:56 PM.
Recent Repertoire: Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7aoBach: Partita #2 in c minor Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata") Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12 Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor Suggestion diabolique
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601 |
I don't think we understand how Horowitz did what he did at all. I mean, even forget the stuff you said. How about how he generated so much power with so little movement? How about how he got such SOFT sounds, and with such unfailing control, out of a piano which by most accounts was unusually bright?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419 |
Those are all important questions, and I don't know if anyone can answer them. Nevertheless, I couldn't help but wonder how certain hand positions would provide one person with the most brilliant technique, but injure almost everyone else. Normally, approaches to technique that are potentially injurious will result in significant technical limitations, even if you don't actually injure yourself.
Recent Repertoire: Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7aoBach: Partita #2 in c minor Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata") Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12 Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor Suggestion diabolique
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453 |
The simple answer is that he was doing what came most natural to him. That's why he is the "one and only" Volodya.
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601 |
Those are all important questions, and I don't know if anyone can answer them. Nevertheless, I couldn't help but wonder how certain hand positions would provide one person with the most brilliant technique, but injure almost everyone else..... I think you're trying to understand fine details of a subject when we don't even know about the large details. That's hard to do. But since you're raising it.....I don't agree that those hand positions would necessarily injure most people more than "normal" hand positions. Lots of people get injured with the latter, and I don't think we know how many people would get injured with Horowitz's. I think the main problem would be that they just wouldn't play very well.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419 |
Horowitzian, so you believe that a technique that is natural for one person might not be natural for everyone else? That may be true, although it flies in the face of the logic of pedagogues such as Taubman who insist that everyone's anatomy is essentially the same and thus motions that are healthy for one pianist are automatically healthy for everyone. Those teachers would argue that what constitues a healthy or natural technique applies to everyone.
Last edited by LaReginadellaNotte; 05/07/10 12:05 AM.
Recent Repertoire: Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7aoBach: Partita #2 in c minor Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata") Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12 Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor Suggestion diabolique
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601 |
Look at how different people's seating positions are when they drive. (My driving position makes most people laugh.) Look at how differently people stand. Or walk. That may be true, although it flies in the face of the logic of pedagogues such as Taubman who insist that everyone's anatomy is essentially the same and thus motions that are healthy for one pianist are automatically healthy for everyone. I recently had one lesson with a Taubman follower. That was all I could take.
Last edited by Mark_C; 05/07/10 12:14 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419 |
Look at how different people's seating positions are when they drive. (My driving position makes most people laugh.) Look at how differently people stand. Or walk. That is true, but certain types of sitting or standing (e.g. collapsing the neck and back) can lead to injury- just as certain hand positions can cause injury at the keyboard. I just thought that it's a little strange that Horowitz could do something that normally would be injurious, yet have it work for him. What didn't you like about the Taubman teacher?
Last edited by LaReginadellaNotte; 05/07/10 12:12 AM.
Recent Repertoire: Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7aoBach: Partita #2 in c minor Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata") Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12 Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor Suggestion diabolique
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601 |
Basically what you said. I think it's a travesty -- the idea that there's any single physical way to do anything. (There were personal reasons too -- we just weren't a good match -- but I think the Taubman stuff was involved in that too.)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 419 |
So you would agree with Horowitz that there is no one right technique that will work for everyone? If you subscribe to the theory that technique must be tailor-made to an individual's specific hand type, then I can see why it wouldn't surprise you that certain approaches will injure some people while working very effectively for others.
Recent Repertoire: Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7aoBach: Partita #2 in c minor Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata") Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12 Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor Suggestion diabolique
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453 |
[...]
I think it's a travesty -- the idea that there's any single physical way to do anything.
[...] Exactly my thoughts.
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169 |
[...]
I think it's a travesty -- the idea that there's any single physical way to do anything.
[...] Exactly my thoughts. I agree with this in principle. On the other hand, I'm starting with a Taubman teacher in 4 weeks. It will be pretty reconstructive-- hand rotations and C major scales only at least for several lessons. But I've heard nothing but wonderful things about her, and at this point, I'm still recovering from a long-term injury and don't know how to play anything without fatigue and pain. I'll let you know how it goes.... -Jason
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856 |
I scratch the keys. Scratching (non-piano) is pretty much universal.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601 |
I agree with this in principle. On the other hand, I'm starting with a Taubman teacher in 4 weeks. It will be pretty reconstructive-- hand rotations and C major scales only at least for several lessons. But I've heard nothing but wonderful things about her, and at this point, I'm still recovering from a long-term injury and don't know how to play anything without fatigue and pain. I'll let you know how it goes.... I think I'd have a good chance to get you out of the fatigue and pain without Taubman. But good luck with the teacher!! Sounds like it could be good. How would I do it? Look at exactly how you play, and consider it in light of the symptoms. You might want to consider seeing someone who can do that kind of stuff anyway. It doesn't require Taubman or any other particular method. BTW.....this isn't my work; I hope I'm not making it sound like it is.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,325
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,325 |
I think that everyone lies on a bell-curve. For people near the average, a generally successful technique would work very well. But people near the extremes would have a hard time. This goes for all kinds of things - clothing, medicine, and learning. Horowitz likely disregarded the naysayers and found the technique that was perfect for him. Others who are on different parts of the bell-curve, when attempting it, would injure themselves.
It is useful to find out what generally works for people so that we have a guideline, and to try out this method first instead of something extreme (just like how a lot of people would try on the medium sized shirt first).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601 |
.....(just like how a lot of people would try on the medium sized shirt first). I thought men only try large and extra-large, and woman only try small and petite.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 953
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 953 |
If you look at his fingers when he strikes the key, they are not perfectly straight. They appear straight because they are so long, but they are perfectly relaxed.
Last edited by Rui725; 05/07/10 01:50 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601 |
If you look at his fingers when he strikes the key, they are not perfectly straight. They appear straight because they are so long, but they are perfectly relaxed. Yes -- the "straight fingers" thing is at least exaggerated. I think it varied according to what kind of passage it was. Chords: mostly straight fingers Passagework: mostly curved In fact, IIRC.....Harold Schonberg commented on it in some of his reviews. But I think it's true that Horowitz played with straight fingers (or straight-ish) to an unusual extent.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,805
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,805 |
I'm sure that you are aware that Horowitz had an extremely unorthodox approach to the piano. He frequently played with low wrists, flat fingers, and a curled pinky. He played runs with a type of stratching motion, striking the key with an outstretched finger and then quickly pulling it back.
I think there are lots of pianists who play with low writs or flat fingers or a curled pinky. But since this way of playing is not the way the majority of pianists play and Horowitz is very great, these parts of H's playing get talked about as being something unique to him(which they aren't). I wouldn't personally say H used a scratching motion.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,931
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,931 |
Perhaps the 'scratching' is what my teacher called 'wiping' or 'sliding' and she was adamantly opposed to it. On the other hand (no pun intended) she advocated very low wrists for some parts and very high wrists for some parts, curved fingers for some and very flat fingers for some. One hand might be using a low wrist and flat fingers and the other high wrist and finger tips.
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|