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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1428294
05/02/10 11:55 AM
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Quote
but it does sound rather like a reverb effect.


Even on real pianos resonance sounds like a reverb effect.


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1428314
05/02/10 12:23 PM
05/02/10 12:23 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bkmz
Even on real pianos resonance sounds like a reverb effect.

Hmm, not to me.

What I mean is, when I press the pedal down on a real piano and play some notes it doesn't seem as though the piano were suddenly placed in a reverberant room. It instead sounds like it is in the same room its always been in but with the string all vibrating and interacting with each other.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1428335
05/02/10 01:08 PM
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Well I remember when I played on some upright piano, pressing pedal down gives an effect very similar to reverb, and - yes, to a "reverberant hall".

I'm pretty sure about it, because event when I played on acoustic guitar, the resonance between guitar strings sounded kinda like of reverb too.

Last edited by bkmz; 05/02/10 01:28 PM. Reason: typo

ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1428340
05/02/10 01:15 PM
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Oh, here is a good example with acoustic piano:

[video:youtube]zUz0vTwYthY[/video]

Hear this? It's clearly a reverb-like.


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1428358
05/02/10 01:55 PM
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And here is a quote from HP307 manual, "Troubleshooting" section

Quote
Reverberation remains even if you defeat the Reverb effect -

The HP307’s piano sound faithfully simulates the depth and resonance of an acoustic piano, and this may give the
impression of reverberation even if you’ve defeated the Reverb effect.
Also, you may be able to eliminate some reverberation by reducing the value set for “Cabinet Resonance.”


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1428369
05/02/10 02:14 PM
05/02/10 02:14 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Well, here is what I'm talking about:

http://www.mediafire.com/?jzmaqzztwqa

It's an MP3 mashup of the pedal down sympathetic resonance test for the VSL Vienna Imperial (default setting) and the HP307 (with the effect set to max).

The first sound is the Imperial with pedal up, the second with pedal down, the third is the HP307 with pedal up, the fourth with pedal down.

The HP307 pedal down sounds fairly reverby to me, while the Imperial does not.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1428380
05/02/10 02:28 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Here is another mashup where the HP307 damper resonance is instead set to 5 (default):

http://www.mediafire.com/?yizn3zhdzjz

Not nearly as reverby sounding as when it is maxed out (IMO).

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1428381
05/02/10 02:31 PM
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Ok, lets repeat it.

Even on real pianos resonance sounds like a reverb effect.

I listened to your files. HP307 is more authentic.


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1428399
05/02/10 02:56 PM
05/02/10 02:56 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bkmz
I listened to your files. HP307 is more authentic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Imperial pedal down sympathetic resonance is a real recording of a piano with the pedal down. By very definition that is more authentic than a dispersion effect.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1428431
05/02/10 04:02 PM
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Excuse me, but I think that mix of a separately recorded notes won't give a real recording.

What can you say about the video above with real acoustic piano? Are you denying that this effect is very similar to reverb?


ex-Yamaha CLP 330
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1428511
05/02/10 07:20 PM
05/02/10 07:20 PM
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So far the sympathetic resonance of the HP-307 sounds fine, though I'd say the Imperial may be a bit better. smile There are various settings on the HP-307 that influence the sound.

The very nice thing about the HP-307 is that there isn't any looping/buzzing, and it sounds pretty 'natural' to me (not "superNATURAL" and not "superFAKE").

I took dewster's mashup of the Imperial and added a new sample of the HP-307 since maxing out parameters isn't something you'd probably do in real life.

http://wmsar.info/dewster_dpbsd/comp/imperial_hp307MOD_hp307MAX.mp3

The MP3 above plays 3 samples:
  • 1. The Imperial (from dewster),
  • 2. The HP-307 with 'moderate' settings (see below),
  • 3. The HP-307 with MAX settings (see below).


Quote
Sample #2: HP-307 with 'moderate':
- Reverb OFF
- Lid = 4
- Damper Resonance = 5 [SysEx]
- Hammer Noise = 2 (max)
- Duplex Scale = 5
- String Resonance = 5
- Key Off Resonance = 5
- Cabinet Resonance = OFF [SysEx]
- Damper Noise = 5


Quote
Sample #3: HP-307 with 'max' for most parameters:
- Reverb OFF
- Lid = 6 (max)
- Damper Resonance = 10 [SysEx]
- Hammer Noise = 2 (max)
- Duplex Scale = 10
- String Resonance = 10
- Key Off Resonance = 10
- Cabinet Resonance = OFF [SysEx]
- Damper Noise = 10 (max)


dewster, I'm curious about the 'mosquito noise' - how are you determining that, and would you post a picture? I installed Adobe Audition and was looking at the 'frequency analysis', and was wondering if you were referring to the noise down below 1000Hz, or the entire range (seems more noisy below 1kHz). I did a quick web search on mosquito noise, so maybe I'm misinterpreting or looking at the wrong thing?

Regards


Roland HP-307
Roland Quad-Capture

https://vimeo.com/58278342
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jmmec] #1428811
05/03/10 07:45 AM
05/03/10 07:45 AM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jmmec
So far the sympathetic resonance of the HP-307 sounds fine...

I agree - I think the HP307 pedal down sympathetic resonance sounds pretty good when it isn't turned up too much i.e. when it is set to a reasonable, realistic level. Beyond that it sounds more like an effect, but even then it doesn't sound bad.

Originally Posted by jmmec
dewster, I'm curious about the 'mosquito noise' - how are you determining that, and would you post a picture? I installed Adobe Audition and was looking at the 'frequency analysis', and was wondering if you were referring to the noise down below 1000Hz, or the entire range (seems more noisy below 1kHz). I did a quick web search on mosquito noise, so maybe I'm misinterpreting or looking at the wrong thing?

Maybe I'm misusing the term. It's non-white noise - a bubbling slurry of tones - rather like the random chatter from a computer in an old science fiction film. I hear it in your files mainly when the recorded sound is getting near the noise floor.

[Linked Image]
For instance, here is a waveform view of the looping test in the file dpbsd_v1_7b_Roland_HP307_DR5_jmmec.mp3. The vertical dimension has been greatly zoomed up so we can see the noise floor, and a portion of the C1 note decay is highlighted. In it I can hear something like random tones. Here is an MP3 of the highlighted section, highly compressed so you don't have to turn the volume up:

http://www.mediafire.com/?hgagxodtw2j

It could be external noise getting into your signal, or noise from the analog to digital converter on your soundcard or in your digital recorder, or produced somehow by the MP3 conversion process, or it could be coming from the digital to analog converters in your HP307, or from the SN process itself.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz] #1428822
05/03/10 08:13 AM
05/03/10 08:13 AM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bkmz
Excuse me, but I think that mix of a separately recorded notes won't give a real recording.

Point taken. But sympathetic resonance in a piano is apparently linear enough that a simple sum of pedal down samples works in a realistic manner. If it wasn't, PC based DPs wouldn't sound very good.

Originally Posted by bkmz
What can you say about the video above with real acoustic piano? Are you denying that this effect is very similar to reverb?

Interesting video! Sympathetic resonance is very similar to reverb, and that's why dispersion effects can be effectively used to simulate it, at least to a first order.

But it isn't reverb. For one thing it's much more frequency selective.

I fear this discussion is entering xkcd territory:

[Linked Image]

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1430607
05/06/10 12:20 PM
05/06/10 12:20 PM
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WA, USA
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ukwomble Offline
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http://www.mediafire.com/?fmzt2gaaw2y

MP3 for Yamaha CLP-S308

Recorded via aux out. I suspect it may have recorded in mono? Haven't had time to dig into that yet.


Yamaha CLP-S308
Learning after >20 years break smile
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ukwomble] #1430631
05/06/10 12:54 PM
05/06/10 12:54 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Thanks!

It is in mono actually.

I sent you a PM.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1430738
05/06/10 02:39 PM
05/06/10 02:39 PM
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ukwomble Offline
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Hmm, this explains a lot frown

There is no line-in. I'd expect more from a mid-range business laptop (Lenovo T61p).


Audio
High Definition (HD) Audio
Built-in stereo speakers
Software control volume
Monaural microphone jack
Stereo headphone jack



Yamaha CLP-S308
Learning after >20 years break smile
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ukwomble] #1430790
05/06/10 03:45 PM
05/06/10 03:45 PM
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NikkiPiano Offline
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How about recording left and right channels separately and then join them as a stereo track?

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano] #1430813
05/06/10 04:11 PM
05/06/10 04:11 PM
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I suspect I'd have a hard time syncing them up precisely. Will probably just grab a long headphone extension cable and plug into my desktop...


Yamaha CLP-S308
Learning after >20 years break smile
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano] #1430906
05/06/10 06:23 PM
05/06/10 06:23 PM
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dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by NikkiPiano
How about recording left and right channels separately and then join them as a stereo track?

MIDI timing isn't generally tight enough to correctly align audio phase.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1430968
05/06/10 07:26 PM
05/06/10 07:26 PM
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How about importing both left and right mono tracks into Audacity, zooming in closely, then aligning the two until they are perfectly synced?

Cheers,
James
x


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